syllabus differences

[omote]

Repetition - being a major factor in absorbing Japanese martial arts - tends to have its pitfalls too so what is particularly interesting for me is whether the first two steps (sic') are always utilised by torimi or just used to get to the third.

oneya

I have always watched for this too. At a surface level, is ukemi making a good use of the opportunity in maai and timing, and on a deeper level is torimi using the first two steps to set up the proper maai and timing to get the desired effect? Otherwise go-kyu level karate forever, heh? I must admit that 2 hours into sanbon's it is easy to fall into that pitfall.

omote

[jacob]

I must stress that by posting the initial question I am not undermining any of the teachings of the main branches of wado and the syllubus differences. Like all wado related things I find it very interesting. Any yes Tim, i good instructor is most important, I went to six clubs before i settled with the one I am at now, funny thing is that the one i'm at is the cheapest, with the least frills attached. Speaks volumes I think..

[blackcat]

[/quote]
Hi DJ,


I remember doing Suzuki senseis sanbon gumites as ippons with the late Mr.Takamizawa.

Steve.[/quote]

I guess they readily adapt to that - I recall Tatsuo Suzuki teaching them that way too once. Maybe the room was full so he improvised; fond memory of that session, he drove everyone into the ground with basics and combinations!

As a point for discussion, is training to step backwards in this way not instilling a bad habit?

Ben

[claas]

Hi Ben,

Hi DJ,


I remember doing Suzuki senseis sanbon gumites as ippons with the late Mr.Takamizawa.

Steve.

I guess they readily adapt to that - I recall Tatsuo Suzuki teaching them that way too once. Maybe the room was full so he improvised;

On this video you can see maegeriuke 1 & 5 and jodanuke 1 & 3 as ippon kumite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBlfNSXNO9Q

As a point for discussion, is training to step backwards in this way not instilling a bad habit?

Good question. Another one is, "isn't it developing a bad habit to let the attacker keep his knife in tantodori?". For both of these I think there are dangers, but it depends on the mindset of the one who is training. (As far as I know it has happened that a police officer has taken a weapon in a real situation and given it back as done while training. When I asked an expert about this, he said he knows a few cases in which this has happened. Nowadays most instructors on that field find a way to go around this problem if I have understood correctly. One for example is to put the weapon on the ground and let the other one pick it up.)

Feelingwise I don't feel the stepping back develops a bad habit. Maybe it's because when the punch itself is coming, or the moment just after that, you are already slowing down, which is actually acceleration forward. This analysis is drawn from the feeling - not vice versa. Also moving backwards doesn't mean that one is not thinking forward. Actually some times adjusting the distance backwards helps to think about going forward. So in sanbon kumite you get to train these things.

Now that you brought these bad habits up, I come to think some people might develop a bad habit in blocking too hard because the stepping is not to the side, except for the last one. The feeling of not changing the angle in which you meet the opponent is very strong and there might be a risk that it contradicts what will be trained later in kihon kumite.

Now I have to ask did you mean "forward vs backward" or "on the same line vs moving sideways"? I think feelingwise there might be some truth at least in the latter, but of course this depends on the teaching arrangements as a whole. What is good about the concept of sanbon kumite is that it might get one to think about this difference and perhaps gives a feeling that the way the third attack is met is a lot better than the way the first two ones are. If this happens, the student probably gets something more valuable than just the words "we meet attacks this way".
I think there is a danger but I also think there is a lot to gain. What the result will be depends on the student and the overall teaching arrangements, as I said before.

[WadoAJ]

Hi DJ,


I remember doing Suzuki senseis sanbon gumites as ippons with the late Mr.Takamizawa.

Steve.[/quote]

I guess they readily adapt to that - I recall Tatsuo Suzuki teaching them that way too once. Maybe the room was full so he improvised; fond memory of that session, he drove everyone into the ground with basics and combinations!

As a point for discussion, is training to step backwards in this way not instilling a bad habit?

Ben[/quote]

Hi Ben,

I think it depends what intent you have stepping back. And as an extent (or actually before that) it is the instruction that makes the difference? There are many interesting lessons like maai and drawing to be learned. Perhaps it can be compared to stepping back or forward when engaging in kamae doing kihon gumite. I mean: The step back by torimi should have the same intent as the step forward by ukemi. I guess stepping back with the same intent is more difficult, but therefore more important to practice. Of course, kamae engagement is not similar to 'step back and defend' but I guess you know what I'm referring too.

AJ

[Tim49]

Hi Claas,
Stepping back, stepping forwards, stepping to the side, all you are doing is changing your position in relation to your opponent and depending on how you choose to react to him.

Words like ‘retreat’ and ‘advance’ have semantic baggage attached to them. We also know how human nature works in stress situations; it is our impulse to ‘retreat’ from danger, it is our wish that we would always ‘advance’ and not shy away when the challenge arose and we are under pressure.

I think you mentioned mindset; this is the key to the issue in my opinion. AJ said about how you think when you step back i.e. don’t get yourself in to a defensive mindset, he is quite correct.

There is also a misunderstanding about how Tanto Dori works. Set pieces like Tanto Dori are not choreographed fights; they are condensed packages of knowledge, abstracts almost, and as packages they are to be unwrapped carefully. Others on here I know have strong opinions about these issues.

Tim

[WadoAJ]

they are condensed packages of knowledge, abstracts almost, and as packages they are to be unwrapped carefully

Tim

I like that explanation.

AJ

[Ichiro]

Hey all, just glancing through the posts and would like to mention that in my dojo, we train sanbon gumite, ohyo gumite and kihon gumite. And all three are expected to be known for gradings along with kata, kihon waza, renraku waza.

I believe it is the old Tatsuo Suzuki Sensei syllabus (RIP) that we learn. However, I believe that a few years ago that changed and that the renraku waza are now completely different within WIKF and seem to be more shotokan style based.

Ichiro

[Ichiro]

As mentioned in the post above. The renraku waza have changed. I found this strange when I attended a different wikf dojo away from home. I have never seen this and don't even know how to understand it or where to start. Any help our videos out there on these particular renraku waza?


1st - HIDARI HANMI GAMMAE: 
EVADE MIGI/HIDARI, USHIRO ASHI STEP FORWARD, MIGI URAKEN -  MIGI SURIKOMI SOKUTO CHUDAN  -  STEP BACK JODAN NAGASHI UKE (both hands)  -  MIGI CHUDAN HIZA TEN KAO GERI  -  HIDARI MAKIKOMI JODAN HIJI UCHI.

2nd -HIDARI HANMI GAMMAE: 
HIDARI CHUDAN and JODAN RENZUKI  -  MIGI GYAKUZUKI CHUDAN  -  HIDARI SURI KOMI MAEGERI CHUDAN  -  HIDARI NAGASHI ZUKI JODAN  -  MIGI SPINING ASHI BARAI  -  MIGI MAWASHIGERI JODAN (at once)  -  HIDARI MAEGERI GEDAN/MAWASHIGERI JODAN (RENGERI: same foot)  -  MIGI GYAKAZUKI CHUDAN. 
 

[Ichiro]

Furthermore, I would be interested to hear from other wado folk on how they conduct a Nidan geri jodan within your respected dojo. Do you execute it as the double jump kick like the name suggests or more of a tobi maegeri jodan?

Ichiro