Tetsuzan Kuroda body movement video

[wadoka]

Some interesting pieces but I haven't a clue on the commentary as always.

2:20 into footage is interesting as we see that position in tanto dori although I think ukemi can make use of gripping their own gi lapel to assist.

8:15 into footage, says to me it is more than just the arm movement that is required, whole body as usual and not just grabbing with the arm to throw.

[Gary]

Quality find Gordon.

I am a big fan of Kuroda sensei, but....

Whilst I appreciate that there are some great body mechanics and timing going on here, there is also a lot of "compliancy".

One of the things we get chastised for in my dojo is “dying” too easily.

Takes the reality out of things imo.

That said - the guy is amazing - and most human beings don't move like that??!!

Gary

[oneya]

Hi Gary,

Again it's a process and Ukemi is often a misunderstood role in keiko where compliance needs some deep consideration rather than generalization , especially in the early stages of training. Training with a partner mostly revolves around a learning situation for both participant and will only be effective if both understand their role in the duet. In kata like kihon kumite for instance a degree of compliance is needed to allow the kata to be absorbed by both ukemi and torimi until the skill factor matures enough to shed the compliance.. There are times and situations in training where non compliance can result in breakages and or maybe internal damage if it becomes a contest. There is also the matter of softeners that are omitted in training to allow for continuity where non compliance would stymie any progress in the lesson to be learned. . 'Training is not a contest, it is only training.' Where training becomes a problem is when the training is dishonest because integrity and honesty are both aspects that are difficult to teach.

Having said that: it is obvious that there should be no compliance in Jiyu Kumite or ohyo kumite or we will never know if the stratagems and techniques are valid.

oneya.

[Gusei21]

Compliancy is not the point in these exercises.
He says clearly in the video at times not to hold the guy down too hard.
What they are getting at here is learning correct body connection and body movement.
If you understand the purpose of the opening move of kushanku you will get the arm slippage part.
It's about learning to connect the arm to the body without pulling on the arm.
When you learn to connect the body you learn to move as one.
Otsuka Sensei is doing this kind of stuff under the covers. You can see it when you know what to look for.
These are just exercises to facilitate learning body movement not a video on martial technique.
But you can't do true martial technique unless you start to understand these movements.
Try to find his jujitsu video. Watch how he moves. Mind-blowing stuff.

[oneya]

.
Yes there you have it, and this comment will probably come back to bite me but - I reckon if after umpteen years of training we start by not understanding what we are looking at, and we don’t understand the language being spoken to make a judgement on the intent of the practitioners then we’re off down another detour to the dung pile.

When I look at Kuroda I am just thinking it is time to start over again from the beginning.?

oneya

[metalfury]

Thanks for sharing; I must admit I felt similarly to Gary after watching. Although many of the techniques looked great, I was left wondering if some of them would work 'mechanically' if full weight/strength was used. i.e. some of them seemed to use the limbs rather than the body in a position with no mechanical advantage.

I can't watch the video at work, but I'll try and give a specific example later. I'm expect I'm either just wrong on this and missed the finer points of the techniques or missunderstood the reason for the particular training; but I would be interested in your thoughts on how the technique could work (if it is possible to articulate outside the dojo on a forum).

@Gusei21 Thanks for your explanation regarding compliancy.

Some of the arm release techniques did look very interesting - I'm looking forward to giving them a try; I'll try and find a willing partner tonight!

MF

[wadoka]

Look at the techniques but do not stare...

What I mean is, there are principles and a bit of beauty in the stuff, but don't concentrate on the would it work or not final aspect.

We have probably done exercises in the dojo to practice moving forward in junzuki. Someone holds you by the back of your belt and then you work on the loosening the support of the front knee, not to kick off the back foot, concentrate of keeping the centre of gravity low and let that come through etc, etc.

I have been in the situation where someone bigger and stronger more or less yanked me backwards as soon as I started working on the movement. I would end up stumbling backwards to regain balance. He said it was my role to pull him forward, true but not if he has adopted the tug-of-war already. What was the point in all that? As a process you take feedback and build on that.

There are many times when you see Kuroda practice with the partner and then change, reserve the roles or simply disappear from that spot. Misdirection can go hand in hand with full/excess commitment.

I don't know Japanese, aside from hearing the odd word or two, so have now clue on what was being said and what the message he is trying to explain, but I know through my own practices on Shiomitsu Sensei courses, and as Oneya has mentioned, there are softeners that can be used, or simply change it to something different but then you are not practicing what you set out to.

Take idori number 1, I think that is the same for most groups, but I mean the one where both wrists are pinned against the thighs. If you got someone heavier and stronger, there is no way you could get that upward movement, arm locking before turning them etc. You simply drop one hand down off your thigh and begin the process there. Then there is the fact that you should apply the technique just as they are going for the wrists, and that initial position is not real. It is kata again.

[oneya]

Hi MF

It's a small thing but If its purpose is to work towards an integrated body moving as a complete unit, you might be better off thinking of the practice as movement or exercises rather than techniques if you are going to work on understanding how a connected body works.

oneya

[metalfury]

Thanks Wadoka and Oneya for the replies and the food for thought.

Whilst I'm still in the mindset set of working techniques ;-)

...apply the technique just as they are going for the wrists

I hadn't considered this - I was initially thinking of someone statically holding my leg down on the floor with their full 80kg, rather than catching them on the move.

I will watch again with new eyes a little later on and look for the principles of a connected body rather than techniques.

This reminds me of the Kata Bunkai discussions on the the old forum regarding the learning of 'principles of movement' rather than techniques.

[Gary]

Hi MF

It's a small thing but If its purpose is to work towards an integrated body moving as a complete unit, you might be better off thinking of the practice as movement or exercises rather than techniques if you are going to work on understanding how a connected body works.

oneya

Hi Reg,

Yes, I understand that these are exercises designed to allow the student to "realise" body mechanics/movement and whilst I accept that in combative application there are softeners etc. involved, I still feel that a better lesson is learnt if your training partner doesn't give in too easily.

Regarding Idori 1, Gordon is correct of course when he mentions about applying the technique before the opponent has had chance to press down fully on the wrists - as it folds back the inertia of the technique, but it is much more than just the hands - it’s about moving as a unit and using the strong core muscles, combined with large levers and small circles to overcome strength and gravity.

Not sure how many of you guys practice this for example:-

You: Sit in seiza with hands on your thighs
Partner: Assume press up position toward you with hands on your wrists (so basically his entire weight is bearing down on your wrists).
You: Rise up from seiza onto both knees and lift arms up (to horizontal) in the process.

Result - your partner ends up in standing position.

It’s actually not too hard to do - if you know how to use your body correctly.

Gary