Wado Myth: Where and Why do I have to kiai in kata?

[steveig]

I think it is great for the kids to kiai loudly, after they have got over the initial embarrassment or shyness they think it is great fun but at what point do you discourage it or do you just let them evolve naturally as they join the senior group.
Steve.

It's like the oss thing. I make my kids oss because it is cute. But I glare at my adults if they do the same... I am guilty of being inconsistent.
My kids scream at the top of their lungs when they kiai in kata. They like it and I think it is cute and it is all good...[/quote]

[wadoka]

So for me, if I need to qualify what I mean by kiai it would be something like: A human being is put under extreme pressure by way of a series of physiological, psychological and exertions of one’s will and the compound nature of all the energies in the action will seek release in the easiest. action of the human body and that is the expulsion of breath.

Other ways I can view kiai is under those conditions you mention it is a way of summoning reserves, it could be used as a wake up call to flick that switch of intent, it could be used as part of a strategy in relation to "Mikuzure" to apply pressure to an opponent. Sometimes it is even revitalising.

On the summer course we did an exercise where in shiko dachi we did an extended kiai with all our breaths until we had nothing left. Shiomitsu Sensei's kiai seemed to be a lot different. Mine ran out too quickly it seemed.

There is kiai in Shindo Yoshin Ryu and at times it is the same but other times it is a bit different. Sometimes it is used to help differentiate between the attacker and the defender (they use different shouts..after all you want to keep track of who is going to move first....especially if you have a bokken or a sword in your hands...)

That is very interesting detail to know.

We may never know but the intangible mukei was never likely to be intelligible until the young bloods had learned the tournament lessons.

O.K.I’d better pick up my pace if we’re gonna head ‘em off at the pass.

There is something about say watching two young brown belts attempting their dan grading and throughout the pairworks and their both kiai in the same way making virtually the same sound, making the same short phrase like eee-ay. It is only with time as we fill into our Wado-bodies, so to speak, that we became more individual and can express different things, audibly and silently. You only get that through the long-run, in training and life, in my opinion.

[Tim49]

There is a whole section on Kiai in E. J. Harrison's book 'The Fighting Spirit of Japan'.
Worth digging out as it features notes from a lecture given by an old jujutsu master, lots about Kiai in there.

The book was written many years ago and largely features observations from one of the first westerners to train at the Kodokan.

Tim

[oneya]

So for me, if I need to qualify what I mean by kiai it would be something like: A human being is put under extreme pressure by way of a series of physiological, psychological and exertions of one’s will and the compound nature of all the energies in the action will seek release in the easiest. action of the human body and that is the expulsion of breath.

Other ways I can view kiai is under those conditions you mention it is a way of summoning reserves, it could be used as a wake up call to flick that switch of intent, it could be used as part of a strategy in relation to "Mikuzure" to apply pressure to an opponent. Sometimes it is even revitalising.

On the summer course we did an exercise where in shiko dachi we did an extended kiai with all our breaths until we had nothing left. Shiomitsu Sensei's kiai seemed to be a lot different. Mine ran out too quickly it seemed.

There is kiai in Shindo Yoshin Ryu and at times it is the same but other times it is a bit different. Sometimes it is used to help differentiate between the attacker and the defender (they use different shouts..after all you want to keep track of who is going to move first....especially if you have a bokken or a sword in your hands...)

That is very interesting detail to know.

We may never know but the intangible mukei was never likely to be intelligible until the young bloods had learned the tournament lessons.

O.K.I’d better pick up my pace if we’re gonna head ‘em off at the pass.

There is something about say watching two young brown belts attempting their dan grading and throughout the pairworks and their both kiai in the same way making virtually the same sound, making the same short phrase like eee-ay. It is only with time as we fill into our Wado-bodies, so to speak, that we became more individual and can express different things, audibly and silently. You only get that through the long-run, in training and life, in my opinion.

I agree that we can 'summon reserves' Gordon but these reserves are not necessarily available in the early stages of kyu grades and perhaps even many dan grades, which is why I referred to the yukei mountain - which is out in the open - and the mukei valley which is not. As Bob said: "You can't do a musei no kiai unless you can first do a yuusei no kiai." Being as I argued for context I thought I should abide by the context.

My reason for mentioning Suzuki's kiai was - unlike the two brown belts you mention - Suzuki's kiai had a rise and fall and sounded sommething like ee-soo with the second syllable dropping away. I think it was the first or maybe the second time he came to Australia when I asked him about it and he said 'drop off power' or nukeru as we know it today. His explanation came along with a demonstration that made me wish I hadn't mentioned it but I guess there is a price we pay for everything we gain from wado ryu.

oneya

[Gary]

During my brief stint in Daito-ryu, I heard an explanation that there were three sounds that represented the manifestation of "spirit" in the process of engagement.

Going from memory here, but as I recall it was something like:

Eeeehh... (at the point prior to engagement)
Tohh (sounds like toe) at the point of initial strike and...
Ya (or hup) at the point where uke dies

In the Sosuishi ryu dojo - I am continually reprimanded for my "E-ahhh" (or hup) type shout.

Ki = spirit/will/energy - whatever
Ai = to bring together

Imo through good training you will realise "kiai"

Gary

[kyudo]

An aspect of kiai which isn't discussed often in literature, is its influence on group dynamics. In both dojos where I spend long years of training, kiai was employed to boost the spirit of the group. Quite often, a few people would take the lead and direct the rhythm of the exercise with kiai. The others would follow and thus the rhythm, and obviously the kiai, became synchronized. This, then, induced a lot of extra energy into the group, pushing the individuals beyond their regular limits.
The fun thing about this kind of group exercise is that it somehow seems to generate more energy than you put into it. Almost a 'perpetuum mobile', driven by the power of kiai.

I suppose it is for the same reason that groups of soldiers or sailors chant. Through the kiai, the group becomes more than the sum of its parts.

[andyb28]

In my simple head, I came to my own conclusion, I saw the kiai as a tool to deliver the strength within the technique as generally its a finishing blow. As a technique to finish an opponent requires more power, then you can also be more open and so the kiai allows you to tense your body/muscles on impact of your blow to protect from a possible counter.

However, I think it goes back much further than that, I have read some amusing ninja myths to do with making your enemy scared. One even proclaimed that the ninja could make a noise that made their enemies clothes disintegrate!

Andy

[claas]

It is a very widely used practice to shout when turning in basic training. When I was instructing the basic course I started thinking that maybe in the beginning this is not a good idea but instead it might be a better idea to start using it maybe after a year or so. In the beginning in turning the student has to first learn where the feet will end up, then moving there and then the focus goes to no unnecessary movement and efficiency. You forget the feet gradually.

My point is that I guess it is rushing in a way to shout from the beginning. The students get a little tensed and have a hurry to not shout after the others. So they end up turning in a no good stance. Maybe the shout should be incorporated when the students learn to end up in a somewhat good stance. My feeling is that many times the bad habit stays for many years because of a too demanding order of learning where jumping too early to the next part.

How do you people approach this matter of kiai in turnings on different levels of learning?

[KohaiFran]

There is no "magic numbers". But usually one does two Kiai in each Kata.
Except for "Kushanku" where I think I have heard about 4 when my fellow Karateka are doing that Kata. I usually do one at the 1/2 point and the 3/4 Mark.

[oneya]

WoW... No magic numbers..? Only two kiai. or three or four..? surely we can get closer than this 'I've just washed my kiai and can't do a thing with it guesstimate...!!"... Perhaps we should define Kiai first and then see where it is appropriate in kata.. I mean we don't have a guesstimate with junzuki or jodan uke so why should kiai be so difficcult to place..?

oneya