Wado Myth: Where and Why do I have to kiai in kata?

[oneya]

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I think perhaps the 'Where/Why' could be easily incorporated and both kata and kiai might develop a different level of understanding of why kiai should be wherever it is -- but I wouldn't want to structure the format too much.

oneya

[wadoka]

Thread now covers where and why.

[oneya]

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I guess if we are going to discuss where we need to practice kiai in kata we should perhaps start by defining our terms. This is not so easy when the term in question comes from a language where a single kanji can mean both behind and in the future at different times so its context is vital.

Anyone fortunate enough to have practiced under Suzuki Tatsuo will have an opinion about the man and his teaching. It is probably the same with most Japanese sensei that we have trained with but one thing that lives with me as characteristic of Suzuki sensei is a teaching that was a constant, voiced and unmistakable, It was the rise and fall of his kiai. A sound that was as if summoning all his energies had peaked in a moment of crackling congruence and then subsided like a kettle going off the boil.

So for me, if I need to qualify what I mean by kiai it would be something like: A human being is put under extreme pressure by way of a series of physiological, psychological and exertions of one’s will and the compound nature of all the energies in the action will seek release in the easiest. action of the human body and that is the expulsion of breath. What is important to realise is that kiai is a completely natural phenomenon, controlled and coordinated but not manufactured in some mistaken idea of technical requirement for wado ryu. It takes time to develop an understanding of this and - in much the way of junzuki – it is very much a matter of practice. Hence it is part of wado ryu kata and in some ways is a guide to the rise and fall of the intensity of a moment in kata by being placed where it is needed to enable us to realise its significance.

oneya

[Gusei21]

Wadoka,

Thank you for digging up my rant from years ago....lol.
It is always frightening to read what you wrote years ago.
I don't have anything more to add but one thing to consider.
Why do you think we are the only ones who differentiate between yuusei no kiai and musei no kiai?
Could it be that Otsuka Sensei was already an expert martial artist in his own field before he started karate?
There is kiai in Shindo Yoshin Ryu and at times it is the same but other times it is a bit different. Sometimes it is used to help differentiate between the attacker and the defender (they use different shouts..after all you want to keep track of who is going to move first....especially if you have a bokken or a sword in your hands...)


We do kiai in Wado. We just dont' vocalize it like the others.
Kiai serves an important function. It helps to accentuate our power. That is was kiai means right? Ki wo Au. To bring the ki together. That is what kiai means. Ki is chi. Our internal strength.
So we do kiai.
An inaudible kiai has more power than an audible kiai. That is what Hakoishi Sensei told me once. And it was reiterated to me by an Okinawan instructor who laughs at the Japanese competitors who audibalize their kias at every other move like fools.

Quit obsessing Wadoka... :)

If you make a loud audible kiai in Wado kata then you are either one of two things:
1) in competition and dumbing it down for the sake of the clueless judges to eek out any extra point you can or
2) A goober

Edit:
To summarize. We do kiai in Wado.
There are two general types of kiai.
Yuusei no kiai (audible)
Musei no kiai (inaudible)
Sometimes we use one. Many times we use the other.
In solo kata we traditionally only do Musei no kiai and that is why Otsuka Sensei never did Yuusei no kiai (audible).
But we still kiai. Like Tim says, kiai does not have to be vocalized with a loud shout.
The general thought is that yuusei no kiai makes you lose your power while musei no kiai helps you channel your kiai towards your opponent.

[wadoka]

2) a goofy goober, I love Spongebob.

[kyudo]

In solo kata we traditionally only do Musei no kiai and that is why Otsuka Sensei never did Yuusei no kiai (audible).
But we still kiai.

So then the next question obviously is: are there designated points in wado kata for mandatory kiai?

[Gusei21]

In solo kata we traditionally only do Musei no kiai and that is why Otsuka Sensei never did Yuusei no kiai (audible).
But we still kiai.

So then the next question obviously is: are there designated points in wado kata for mandatory kiai?

Kiai whereever makes you happy.
We have NO mandatory kiai points.

Or perhaps to rephrase this, WHY do those people kiai in those so called designated places anyway?
That is what I don't understand.......

But once again, in competition, since they outnumber us we have to pretend to play the game by their rules and dumb it down so we can play on par with them. Otherwise you don't stand a chance of winning.

[wadoka]

Talking in a general sense, are 'we' propagating those audible kiai points when we teach kata?

If we say people can (audibly) kiai where ever they want or not at all then that is fine.

Do we suffer from a group-think approach? If there was a kata course and literally there was a kiai from some person on every move because that person rightly felt within themselves it was an appropriate place to do so, would 'we' then stop and question it and think there is something not quite right?

In the beginning, having the framework where they audibly kiai at the top and bottom of the embusen in the Pinan kata for example, gives students a requirement for them to make that kind of kiai. I know beginners can then to feel very self-conscious in making any noise that might attract attention and by reinforcing the requirement or maybe a better phrase is to give them the opportunity, it can help them come out of the shell. Then they can move onto the next level.

[oneya]

Well there goes my context of kiai in tournament I guess Bob but what tournaments don’t teach is the balance of the tangible (yukei) and the intangible (mukei) aspect of karate so I was just heading up yukei hill before heading down mukei valley. We probably have to look back at its history for reasons but along with the pioneers language difficulties the concepts of yukei and mukei would have been near impossible to teach to the western world so the audible kiai has been pretty much a staple in tournament and the same tournament was obviously moving along on greased wheels in terms of wado popularity so perhaps it was likely that the tournament way – being the same as the University method – was settled for as the initial strategy. We may never know but the intangible mukei was never likely to be intelligible until the young bloods had learned the tournament lessons.

O.K.I’d better pick up my pace if we’re gonna head ‘em off at the pass.


oneya

[Gusei21]

Ok.
So Wadoka has a great point.
And when I think about it I am not consistent.
I need to reset my brain. Sometimes I forget we have a general audience.
What I teach beginners and what I teach intermediate/advanced students are quite different.

You can't do a musei no kiai unless you can first do a yuusei no kiai.
It is easier to scream your brains out than it is to silently scream your brains out.
So for beginners it is perfectly reasonable to loudly kiai your brains out at certain places in the kata.
Vocalizing your kiai is a an acquired skill for many people. So one step at a time.
It is all a process.
Once you get a bit more advanced then your Sensei should come up to you and and teach you how to start internalizing that scream of yours...

If we have this much confusion over kiai then I can imagine that a lot of other stuff gets lost in translation.

It's like the oss thing. I make my kids oss because it is cute. But I glare at my adults if they do the same... I am guilty of being inconsistent.
My kids scream at the top of their lungs when they kiai in kata. They like it and I think it is cute and it is all good...