kumite gata.

[wadoka]

All I can say quickly is that the chudan zuki arm is not an unmoveable object, it is there to be managed as well as managing your body movement. How to find efficiency in combination of the two is high on the agenda.

[Tim49]

I find that the most common mistake is that torimi keeps dwelling on the same seichusen. You have to keep relocating your seichusen and thus change the angle of attack. But then, that's not all that much different from Kihon Kumite, is it?

.

Hi kyudo,

Perhaps it is the almost 180 degree change involved here or me not being at my dribbling peak this morning but - I am failing to grasp an image from this emboldened "dwelling on the same seichusen" description. ... can you help?

oneya

I’ll have a stab at this:
I think what Kyudo is saying is that torimi may well be neglecting to connect to the fact that after the initial attack from ukemi, if he’s got it right, uke will not attack along the same line again, but will instead go for the newly realigned centre line (in Kihon Gumite). If he is referring to kumite gata Go no Sen, Aigamae, chudan Soto uke, then this is a two parter and can be performed in different ways, but initially tori needs to protect himself and disrupt uke from a secure and advantageous position. But, again depending on which version he is doing, tori needs to seek uke’s weak point/angle to be successful.

Tim

[kyudo]

Not only because some things may get lost in translation, also because an online forum makes a technical discussion even more tricky than it already is in the dojo.
Sometimes I wish I were Captain Kirk, so that I could beam over from my location to yours...

But it just occurred to me that I can do something that captain Kirk couldn't: to visualize.

seichusen

kumite gata.jpg (48.79 KiB) Viewed 8195 times

Here's what I meant to say: When ukemi performs his first move, there an initial seichusen. It is crucial that torimi keeps changing his seichusen in order to change the angle of attack. This is visualized in second and third seichusen. While most people perform taisabaki, thus moving from the initial to the second seichusen, they fail to make a next change to a third seichusen. This causes the technique to become a contest of strength against strength. I see some people examining their arms to see what they're doing wrong, when they should examine their body position instead.
Obviously, I'd say this should be pretty clear to the experienced wadoka. Nevertheless I see the mistake quite often.

Disclaimer: this is only a quick and simplified sketch which does not reflect any 'real' situation.

[Tim49]

Not only because some things may get lost in translation, also because an online forum makes a technical discussion even more tricky than it already is in the dojo.
Sometimes I wish I were Captain Kirk, so that I could beam over from my location to yours...

But it just occurred to me that I can do something that captain Kirk couldn't: to visualize.

kumite gata.jpg

Here's what I meant to say: When ukemi performs his first move, there an initial seichusen. It is crucial that torimi keeps changing his seichusen in order to change the angle of attack. This is visualized in second and third seichusen. While most people perform taisabaki, thus moving from the initial to the second seichusen, they fail to make a next change to a third seichusen. This causes the technique to become a contest of strength against strength. I see some people examining their arms to see what they're doing wrong, when they should examine their body position instead.
Obviously, I'd say this should be pretty clear to the experienced wadoka. Nevertheless I see the mistake quite often.

Disclaimer: this is only a quick and simplified sketch which does not reflect any 'real' situation.

Okay, just to get this perfectly clear; are you talking about a single attack kumite gata or a double/triple attack kihon gumite?

If you are talking about Kumite Gata, let's just stay on what is normally accepted as the first one; Aigamae, Jodan Soto Uke.
That way we all know what your reference is and we could get on to specifics.

Tim

[wadoka]

Just thinking about kihon kumite 8 as has already discussed previously and how that diagram could be used twice over.

I think the third angle may not need to be that different from the initial one. It can depend on how much management of uke's arm there is and the kuzushi applied. Going for that bigger angle on the third line is the 'easy' option by which I don't mean it is a simple task but more like applying pressure along that angle to uke's body alignment will mean they are at a weak position but likely to fall backwards if overcooked.

[oneya]

I am failing to grasp an image from this emboldened "dwelling on the same seichusen" description. ... can you help?

I may have failed to convey the right message. Could be my English...
But in order to avoid further confusion, I respectfully decline to go into further technical detail. Not only because some things may get lost in translation, also because an online forum makes a technical discussion even more tricky than it already is in the dojo.

Sometimes I wish I were Captain Kirk, so that I could beam over from my location to yours...

No problem with declining kyudo, and now that the additional comments and your Cap'n Kirk diagram is up there I can see why I was having trouble.

The reason is I only ever see one seichusen in action in a continuum that makes all the action one piece with one seichusen in a continuum of perpetual adjustment - rather than trying to manage two or three seicuhsen in sequence of movements. As torimi I would have to see my best options as making optimum adjustments from the point of view of my seichusen in order to penetrate the opponents Seichusen rather than trying to balance the two in some kind of concorde. So kihon kumite and kumite gata and jiyu kumite should all work the same - for me - not for the movements in the action or the techniques nor for the diagram (embusen?) nor for the opponent - only me and my intent. There will be moments during the movement (action) of course when my seichusen can be viewed as vulnerable but that will be a calculated risk that is lessened by speed, kuzushi, feints and ukemi's pain - Ukemi's pain is very important and is a factor often overlooked in the reality where changes in posture and seichusen vulnerability is a consideration - which is another reason why wado ryu is so concerned with holding sente.

oops.! my topic drift dribble button is sticking again

oneya

[kyudo]

are you talking about a single attack kumite gata or a double/triple attack kihon gumite?

I think you nailed it here:

depending on which version he is doing, tori needs to seek uke’s weak point/angle to be successful.

It doesn't mater whether it is KK of KG, the principles remain the same. In order to seek the weak angle, tori needs to constantly move the seichusen. Exactly how that is done, depends on the specific KK or KG. My point was that some people don't seem to realize that if you don't move the seichusen, you won't arrive at the weak angle of uke.

[kyudo]

I only ever see one seichusen in action in a continuum that makes all the action one piece with one seichusen in a continuum of perpetual adjustment

Beautifully put....
From Star Trek to The Highlander: "there can only be one (seichusen)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlander_(film)

[wadoka]

I agree with the need for movement, even small adjustments can make a big difference. Sometimes you also have to create something from very little using the tools that oneya mentioned.

As instructors we need to place ourselves ukemi to understand more the student's modification needs.

[oneya]

As instructors we need to place ourselves ukemi to understand more the student's modification needs.

No doubt about it - if Ohtsuka meijin taught us anything it is the simple fact that teaching should be a learning process - for all involved.

oneya