Wado Myth: no "karate ni sentenashi" here please, we're Wado

[wadoka]

It has been raised in other threads about defensive stances and whether in pairworks such as kihon kumite when we are nominated as the defender if we should have an attacking mind.

There is this article that sums up the whole attacker/defender roles in Kihon Kumite.

http://www.wadoworld.com/technical/ukem ... orimi.html

The way we talk can reinforce and perpetuate concepts or preconceptions or even errors. Imagine if as white belts they are told there is only attack, even if the person receiving the initial attack in practice that they are looking to attack from the get-go.

Unfortunately in the main we start, or have started off, with block, stop, punch, stop. I think collectively we need to find better words, or at least to omit phrases that may diminish. Even just reading this as I type I know that one answer to come from crowd is to have less talk, less questions in the lesson and just do, just repeat, just feel, just accept. (topic drift in my own post)

It could be said that taking what may be viewed as a defensive stance is actually attacking as you are inviting an attack, you have taken the initiative and they are doing your bidding.

On the Okinawan versus Japanese heritage, imagine having a katana in your hands any small amount of a defensive mind will have bad consequences. To those that might bring up the fact that swords, idori and so on have no relevance to today, an alert proactive mind is of huge value in many areas and not just physical combat.

[Craven]

Thanks wadoka & well put,

a brilliant article by oneya there. Unfortunately or fortunately as soon as I feel I start to understand one concept I realise that this is just another layer of skin on the onion which is Wado and underneath there are not only more skins but more onions to be found!

The wadoworld website is a great resource. Thank you to all who have contributed your valuable information for the rest of us who are still stumbling about in the darkness.

[Rayedin]

This has been a great exersise thus far for me, in the main, i have been trying somewhat unsuccesfully to change from the way i,ve always practiced as attack attack (in combat), and change to what i was wrongly perceiving in wado as defence and attack, like you say wadoka maybe better words than block should be employed, in the future when practicing wado, i will revert back to my original thoughts of attack, now rather than defending, i'll see it as evading as a means to counter.
so thanks gents!

On the subject of "Karate ni setenashi", this has always been a bit of an enigma to me, if there is no first strike in karate, why practice karate?
why not just have a wee chat over some sake?
If two karateka with some issue that leads to combat stand opposite one another growling and ready to fight, there must be one of them takes the initiative and strikes first. Am i wrong in saying men did fight in Okinawa?
I can understand the phylosophy of karate no sentinashi, if karate is to be practiced soley as a way to build better people, but humans are humans and conflict will always be part of being human.

[oneya]

on the Non Martial Art's section..

Thanks wadoka & well put,

a brilliant article by oneya there. Unfortunately or fortunately as soon as I feel I start to understand one concept I realise that this is just another layer of skin on the onion which is Wado and underneath there are not only more skins but more onions to be found!

The wadoworld website is a great resource. Thank you to all who have contributed your valuable information for the rest of us who are still stumbling about in the darkness.

and

Now, with Gordon lushing it up in France and serving up lashings of Topic drift and Section change, I really have no idea of where this should be posted now that we have shifted from the ‘Non Martial Arts Talk’ section but I’ll take me chances and sling it in here..

Hi oneya,

Am I right in saying that in our Wado practise (ie Kihon Gumite, Kumite Gata etc), we should never have defensive thoughts even though we may be deemed as the defender?


BTW Most of the locks & chokes etc that I know have come from the Judo/Ju-Jitsu & Aikido people that I have trained with but, other than the stuff in Wado pairs work, I have not really been taught any of this stuff from my Wado teachers but I guess a syllabus is only a very small part of what Wado is? Also a few years ago I had a fantastic opportunity to train in Blackpool with Toby Threadgill of Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Kai, and can assure all that there was plenty of small joint manipulation, as well as lots of other wonderful stuff which all related to Wado, taught to us by Sensei Threadgill

Hi Craven,

Well sorta right but in both kihon kumite and gumite kata there is no such role as attacker or defender. We really should be making every effort to understand that we are involved in reciprocal training process for our mutual benefit with both participants having an assigned role. One role being Torimi – which means ‘to take‘ and ukemi means ‘to receive’ so each must understand this so that both can reap the rewards of training. If we use the correct Japanese terms it is easier to understand the role of Torimi and the other role being Ukemi as the ‘dojo shorthand’ which makes the mutual benefits possible. In western parlance the ‘attack’ and defensive ‘ roles tend to confuse the issue and the attack and defence roles become traps for the unwary, the problem of a waiting and compliant ukemi not being the least of them. Using the ukemi and torimi terminology it is easier to assign both practitioners a spirited and dynamic role where each gives their best efforts.

Toby Threadgill’s TSYR is an ace in the hole at a stage where many of the European and UK practitioners have still not found their way past the tournament aspects of the wado ryu and for this reason perhaps many have yet to discover the depths of its curriculum beyond its Karate component. It would be the best of both worlds though if the wado ru was taught beyond the Okinawan component by wado instructors and given its right status as a Japanese martial art in the later context for which it was intended. We could make a start by using the simple Japanese dojo terminology cause it ain't so difficult.

regards

oneya

[oneya]

This has been a great exersise thus far for me, in the main, i have been trying somewhat unsuccesfully to change from the way i,ve always practiced as attack attack (in combat), and change to what i was wrongly perceiving in wado as defence and attack, like you say wadoka maybe better words than block should be employed, in the future when practicing wado, i will revert back to my original thoughts of attack, now rather than defending, i'll see it as evading as a means to counter.
so thanks gents!

On the subject of "Karate ni setenashi", this has always been a bit of an enigma to me, if there is no first strike in karate, why practice karate?
why not just have a wee chat over some sake?
If two karateka with some issue that leads to combat stand opposite one another growling and ready to fight, there must be one of them takes the initiative and strikes first. Am i wrong in saying men did fight in Okinawa?
I can understand the phylosophy of karate no sentinashi, if karate is to be practiced soley as a way to build better people, but humans are humans and conflict will always be part of being human.

Ray,

Wado ryu is known as the thinking man's karate and raising the fists should not be the first option or even the first thought. If two karateka have issues that lead to combat then they have a fair way to travel before they can even refer to themselves as karateka.. Karate is sente but wado ryu is not just karate.

oneya.

[Rayedin]

This has been a great exersise thus far for me, in the main, i have been trying somewhat unsuccesfully to change from the way i,ve always practiced as attack attack (in combat), and change to what i was wrongly perceiving in wado as defence and attack, like you say wadoka maybe better words than block should be employed, in the future when practicing wado, i will revert back to my original thoughts of attack, now rather than defending, i'll see it as evading as a means to counter.
so thanks gents!

On the subject of "Karate ni setenashi", this has always been a bit of an enigma to me, if there is no first strike in karate, why practice karate?
why not just have a wee chat over some sake?
If two karateka with some issue that leads to combat stand opposite one another growling and ready to fight, there must be one of them takes the initiative and strikes first. Am i wrong in saying men did fight in Okinawa?
I can understand the phylosophy of karate no sentinashi, if karate is to be practiced soley as a way to build better people, but humans are humans and conflict will always be part of being human.

Ray,

Wado ryu is known as the thinking man's karate and raising the fists should not be the first option or even the first thought. If two karateka have issues that lead to combat then they have a fair way to travel before they can even refer to themselves as karateka.. Karate is sente but wado ryu is not just karate.

oneya.

Agreed sir,
The best weapons we are gifted with is our brains and speech.

[Gary]

This is an interesting essay by Steve Delaney on the subject - however the teminology he uses for Ukemi and Torimi are "teki" and "ware".

Hope he won't mind me posting this as in it, he explains why teki (lit. enemy) is used in Koryu bujutsu (rather than uke) to "dehumanise" the training partner - in order to engender the right mindset.

Anyway good read...

http://seirenkanuk.wordpress.com/the-du ... ata-geiko/

Gary

[oneya]

Nice bit of winnowing by Steve Delaney and what it highlights for me is the necessary and vital aspect of context when using Japanese terminology in a western situation, especially a western dojo situation where the Japanese terms are apt to come already wrapped in a western instructor's consciousness.. This often means that 'near enough is good enough' and the notion that we are engaged in what has become a Japanese 'art' form goes out the window.

Someone, I can't remember who, suggested a wado ryu glossary would be a valuable part of this forum and this is not a bad idea but, I was reminded of a time when I asked a venerable wado practitioner about the meaning of a Japanese term and he gave me a link to a creditable source of translation. Since then the struggle with the kanji and context in maxims and myth like 'karate ni sente nashi' versus the western notion of asking for an answer has been another source of wado ryu exploration for me. I would highly recommend it.

oneya

[wadoka]

Another action that wrongly reinforces the attack/defence mindset is another myth that was played to me as part of a Wado-hybrid organisation (that even had the name sentenashi in the title) I was in when I was a young kid and I frequently see on YouTube clips. That myth is that the attacker slides forward because he is attacking and the defender slides away because he is the defender, and this relates to the first movement from musubi dachi to migi hanmi kamae (fighting stance).

Gusei explained the whole process very nicely on the old site. I will try and dig that out later.

[oneya]

Ohtuska meijin often went in both directions to establish maai..

oneya