Kihon hachihonme

[wadoka]

Not obvious at all. Just more layers of the onion being peeled back.

Glad you mentioned the opening of naihanchi and kushanku, but that is another thread.

I like the way you mention activating the hamstrings. I have heard you mention that before and had been thinking on it against 'dropping the body weight'. I think they are both equivalent but it is a matter of which one etches into the brain to provide the required outcome.

Even when some of us think we are dropping our weight, any residual resistance from the thighs even though we believe we are 'relaxed', is just opposition. By activating the hamstrings as you say, tells the body to focus on the the opposite side to the thigh and hence reduce its effect.

A question that I haven't answered in my head yet is that the first move of say pinan nidan, is can we drop faster by taking away all resistance provided by the thighs or activate the hamstrings. Where we drop vertically we can't grip the floor and pull. If the hamstrings could pull the body faster than gravity then being hooked to the floor would be faster.

Anyway, in kihon kumite or the kind of kuzushi that we are referring to here, we are directing forces in different angles, which is the beauty of things. You also mention the tanto. That is why there is no need for the point winning gyakuzuki. There is something different at play if we seek or listen. Great post, armpit fart and all.

[Tim49]

KG8 is a particular favourite of mine, it contains a whole raft subtleties; it unfolds like the chapters of a book. It is possible to pull so many lessons from the component parts, but when looked at in its entirety it also it has an intrinsic value which is inestimable.

Tim

[claas]

Hello wadoka,

Glad you mentioned the opening of naihanchi and kushanku, but that is another thread.

I agree that it would be good to start a new topic if the discussion went too much to this direction, but Gusei21 kept it in relation to KK8 and I think this kind of linking is only healthy. Perhaps you just meant here would be the danger of topic drift...

One detail for finding the same stuff Gusei21 mentioned is to have some space between the fist and palm. Some people do a "supported empi", while I have learned that independence of the arms is better (pretty much in general). In one way independence brings another kind of unification, based in this case on the principle Gusei21 brought up. Here the "having a straight back" comes into play. The move becomes an opening of the body instead of a forceful twist.

[oneya]

.
No it is not so obvious if the dots are not joined up Bob A while back on the old ‘All Karate’ site I remember a thread where one visionary could see no reason for the foot position and posture of Naihanchi – how lucky were they that their sensei had spotted Ohtsuka’s mistake like that? – and even more when he changed it to a slightly open stance for his students. I guess they slept soundly that night.

I think whether it’s left foot or right foot or left hand or right hand is only playing with the leaves of the tree.
In kk8 in particular though, the posture, koshi training and foot work of Naihanchi are part of the deal that links much of it together in the kuzushi of kihon kumite #8 and should be obvious to wado people - and when you have that you will need the counter balance of nukeru or the wrong fella may end up trapped..?

If anyone has the video seen Setamatsu sensei’s method, he does a slightly more Naihanchi flavoured – perhaps earlier - method of kk8 kuzushi that shows the seasons of a man’s life – Ohtsuka’s life - when compared to the Suzuki method that I practice but the whole tree in full blossom is there in both.

Oneya

[oneya]

I like the way you mention activating the hamstrings. I have heard you mention that before and had been thinking on it against 'dropping the body weight'. I think they are both equivalent but it is a matter of which one etches into the brain to provide the required outcome.

Even when some of us think we are dropping our weight, any residual resistance from the thighs even though we believe we are 'relaxed', is just opposition. By activating the hamstrings as you say, tells the body to focus on the the opposite side to the thigh and hence reduce its effect.

A question that I haven't answered in my head yet is that the first move of say pinan nidan, is can we drop faster by taking away all resistance provided by the thighs or activate the hamstrings. Where we drop vertically we can't grip the floor and pull. If the hamstrings could pull the body faster than gravity then being hooked to the floor would be faster.

.

Hi wadoka,

I don't know about you but being an old mariner I like to look for the exit sign in a strange bar, theatre or situation so maybe it might be beneficial if you add nukeru and tsukeru to the mix in your deliberations - .

oneya

[wadoka]

It's like being at university and I didn't do much study there either.

Noted for future thinking.

Even the one arm Seishan movement brings a while raft of possiblities.

[WadoAJ]

Thanks gusei21 for your post. Especially liked the armpit fart.


Although we ended up at the last movement, isn't it interesting how to get there?

AJ

[oneya]

Thanks gusei21 for your post. Especially liked the armpit fart.


Although we ended up at the last movement, isn't it interesting how to get there?

AJ

Yes 'armpit fart' has that, oh I dunno sorta je ne sais quoi about it and much more piquant than serratus anterior and magnus. My Kushanku will never be quite the same again.

oneya

[Gusei21]

Thanks gusei21 for your post. Especially liked the armpit fart.


Although we ended up at the last movement, isn't it interesting how to get there?

AJ

Yes 'armpit fart' has that, oh I dunno sorta je ne sais quoi about it and much more piquant than serratus anterior and magnus. My Kushanku will never be quite the same again.

oneya

I have more if you want...lol but I'll bet now that a lot of people will remember it..

About using the hamstrings.
For me the use of the hamstrings provide two different functions.

1) For kuzushi - you pull with the hamstrings (on the front leg) once you establish a connection with your opponent. This allows you take more of your mass into the opponent's space to displace him. Depending on where you want to go (weak line vs strong line) it will serve a different function but for the sake of kihon kumite we are taking them down their weak line in the standard form. We want to establish kuzushi in such a way that they are just off balance........not enough for them to readjust...because once they readjust by shuffling their feet you have just hit the reset key and you have to start all over again.

You need to keep them tettering just on the edge...so as to give you time to reach for your tanto to kill him. So pulling with your front foot (using the hamstrings) enables you to do this with little effort. (no wasted energy).

2) For tai otoshi - The drop of the opening movement of Pinan 1,2,4,kushanku all involve activating the hamstrings instead of the quads. Most people activate their quads so the drop is slow. By literally picking your feet off the ground by yanking on your hamstrings you drop much faster and you drop with your whole body. But of course we don't pick our feet off the ground...well at least we don't show that.... :) but the inner dynamics are the same. We don't need to grip anything. We just drop and we use the connection to the ground to generate force into our opponent. And this is where Naihanchi rears its head because the purpose of Naihanchi (in the Wado context - can't speak for other styles) is to teach you how to ground yourself and direct force to the area of your choosing. Yoko Seishan, tate seishan....all creations of Otsuka Sensei because he was using all of this in those stances to generate force. The earth is your friend.

Since we are talking about KK 8, the second movement also is all about yanking the hamstrings. So are the rest of the defense movements in this kata.
Also KK 3. The second movement. All about the hams.... Luke..use the hamstrings...

[WadoAJ]

@gusei21,

like your mentioning of the resetbutton. This often occurs when one tries to apply kuzushi with too much enthousiasm. Turning the table looking at the role of ukemi, people tend to resist too much which is unrealistic after kari ate / atemi etc or the 'give up' too early. They giving up too early makes the reset button die before the machine does. What I'm trying to say is that students often know what is coming and unconsiously escape the movement or do something that renders the practice ineffective. I case of such kuzushi techniques I tell them to try and stand on the same place untill it becomes impossible. It is like practising ashibarai when the opponent steps himself, or punches next to your head just because he knows that you will parry his movement in yakusoku gumite.

as for the dropping into mahanmi neko ashi. Many think they drop because there are bending their knees, while they are actually bending their knees while tensing the muscles of the legs (I guess you call this the quads, not really my field) dropping slower then they should. Actually, if you refer to bending this might be done slowly as well, lowering the body slowly. As for the dropping, I use "to unblock" the knee - hiza no nuki - stating that there should be no muscles interfering with the dropping action of the body becoming weightless temporarily - ukimi - and eventually harmonizing the movement while landing - shizumi - .

In my opinion, the quality of downward movement is that there is no (should not be) upward resistance (unnecessary muscle tension) except for drag which we cannot avoid to begin with since where are in the atmosphere. What I find particularly interesting is when moving forward, that there should be no interfering backward resistance or gravity pull. In other words, in all situations you should try to imitate the qualities of downward movement (zero inertia except for drag) and convert that to any direction you are moving. I really don't like inertia.

Getting slightly offtopic I guess, but wanted to follow up with the dropping example mentioned by Gusei21.. edit: which actually applies to hiji uke

AJ