General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
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Location: Essex


Post by andyb28 »

As it's so very quiet here, perhaps a question would get some activity going.

The final part of Niseishi, turning your arms over one way and then the other...

Would someone care to share what this potentially could be?

The reason I ask is I started Judo last week and something came up which reminded me of the final part of Niseishi. It is to do with breaking balance, the best online example I could find is around the 2 minute mark on here
In the class they were talking about turning your steering wheel one way and then the other, which we then practiced.

It may just be a coincidence, after all, why would you be breaking the balance at that point?

Andy Booth
Colchester Traditional Karate Club
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Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:04 pm

Re: Niseishi

Post by aastepper »


I thought I'd have a quick look in after just lighting a candle in memory of Reg Kear Sensei. I asked a question regarding the Mawashi Uke in Niseishi in the Wadopedia section of this forum a while ago. There may be some good pointers there. I think splitting the opponents power/energy means in relation to Seichusen balance as part of the practice of Kuzushi.
Last edited by aastepper on Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:39 pm

Re: Niseishi

Post by claas »


Both Shotokan and Shitoryu are doing basically the same stream of outer form of the kata and the mawashiuke is the same type as how it is done in Wadokai.

Suzuki sensei did the same, except when pulling, he switched hands. Otsuka sensei did pretty much the same as Wadokai on the Ajari-video but more like both hands together and Jiro Ohtsuka sensei did the same type of mawashiuke too.

My guess is Otsuka sensei altered the mawashiuke only slightly and then the different streams diverged (back). (Could also be that Otsuka sensei developed it further and Suzuki sensei had learned basically what they do in Shotokan and Shitoryu before this developement?) Wadokai could very well be Shotokan/Shitoryu-influenced, which I speculate could be the case for some other "additional" katas too.

Perhaps Suzuki sensei's mawashiuke is influenced by that other kind of mawashiuke where the direction could be seen as being the opposite or alternatively the movement a little longer? The one where the hand that starts higher ends up higher too. I have never seen anywhere else a Suzuki-type mawashiuke+switch, so I wonder if it is safe to assume he created it himself?
Lasse Candé
Helsinki, Finland
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Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Niseishi

Post by shtook »

Hello Andy,

What about that idori where we unbalance one way and then take the head for a trip the other way round?
Still that not the same as splitting tough, I think.

The founders kata and Chosin Chibana's kata don't differ that much. I think Funakoshi didn't change much from Itosu and Ohtsuka didn't change much from Funakoshi. Otsuka Hironori I and II and Suzuki sensei all had their own personal development though. Creating, preserving and demonstrating to the western world are different missions.

In the final position in kihon kumite eight Jiro Ohtsuka sensei had both hands on the underarm. One on the wrist and one on the middle off the under-arm, I think. Wrist and elbow is a much better technique, easier to unbalance. With the smaller steering wheel it's more difficult to steer, especially when both hands are taking a slightly different corner. I think the smaller simpler mawashi uke and the bigger more demonstrative mawashi uke have the same difference. It's the outside and the inside off the same waza.

Casper Baar