Hi
https://youtu.be/2Ghjf1NsXqs
Many of you would have seen the YT video from a couple of years ago with Joe Rogan discussing a range of martial arts and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu/MMA. I may well resemble the "fat, 45 plus guy" and I can see Mr Rogan wouldn't understand Kihon Gumite given his comments in the first minute. He goes on to show more understanding but makes no reference to the very personal nature of the journey and the many benefits to be reaped along the way.
But the Wado Ryu I started learning all those years ago was/is more effective than he outlines and some of us did dip our toes into the murky waters of an early MMA scene (in London, many years ago). I understand that much of that is probably better left in the past! But now things are more "legal", is there any dojo or individuals who have fought in MMA contests, with at least a foundation in traditional Wado Ryu karate ?
There is plenty of swearing in the video so you may want to be careful regarding listeners.
Wado Ryu in MMA?
Re: Wado Ryu in MMA?
Hi,
I think the video generalizes traditional martial arts to a scene, where they actually have arts that are less traditional and more of the McDojo movement. I'd say a lot of the good BJJ is more traditional than a lot of the arts they are describing.
When it comes to Wado in MMA, I don't know about that and I don't know where to draw the line between Wado and competition stuff. A while ago I started the topic about Wado in Russia and it had a link to a tv-program where representatives of different styles took a match against a sports fighter. In my opinion the representative of Wado was more of a competiton karateka, even if I don't know exactly how to work these scales.
Then there is Lyoto Machida who was very successful in MMA. His style was the family's version of Shotokan and sports karate, if I understood correctly. It seems Machida's karate puts more emphasis on taisabaki than most of the Shotokan. Watching some of his competition karate stuff shows that it has a lot of the same elements as for example Suzuki's ohyo kumite. Is it Wado then? Was the Russian a Wado representative? Are the Wado people in competition karate Wado people? Where do you draw the line?
I'm not putting competition karate against Wado in any way. I'm just wondering what would make a Wado fighter in MMA a Wado fighter and not an MMA-fighter or a (generic) karateka? I guess to answer that, we would first need to have an example of a Wadoka in MMA.
Probably a few of these exist at least on a lower level somewhere in the world. There is even a chance one might see something wadoish in the way they fight.
I think the video generalizes traditional martial arts to a scene, where they actually have arts that are less traditional and more of the McDojo movement. I'd say a lot of the good BJJ is more traditional than a lot of the arts they are describing.
When it comes to Wado in MMA, I don't know about that and I don't know where to draw the line between Wado and competition stuff. A while ago I started the topic about Wado in Russia and it had a link to a tv-program where representatives of different styles took a match against a sports fighter. In my opinion the representative of Wado was more of a competiton karateka, even if I don't know exactly how to work these scales.
Then there is Lyoto Machida who was very successful in MMA. His style was the family's version of Shotokan and sports karate, if I understood correctly. It seems Machida's karate puts more emphasis on taisabaki than most of the Shotokan. Watching some of his competition karate stuff shows that it has a lot of the same elements as for example Suzuki's ohyo kumite. Is it Wado then? Was the Russian a Wado representative? Are the Wado people in competition karate Wado people? Where do you draw the line?
I'm not putting competition karate against Wado in any way. I'm just wondering what would make a Wado fighter in MMA a Wado fighter and not an MMA-fighter or a (generic) karateka? I guess to answer that, we would first need to have an example of a Wadoka in MMA.
Probably a few of these exist at least on a lower level somewhere in the world. There is even a chance one might see something wadoish in the way they fight.
Lasse Candé
Helsinki, Finland
Helsinki, Finland
Re: Wado Ryu in MMA?
Hi and thanks for the reply
I agree that the video takes a negative view of all "traditional" martial arts in general and therefore seems to equate all karate with the "McDojo" model. Perhaps, unless it is tested in the reality of the Octagon. But the rise of MMA has presented a challenge to all traditional martial arts, including Wado Ryu. The following definition of traditional martial arts taken from the Black Belt website seems fair enough:
"Traditional martial arts training refers to training in a martial art that is rooted in the tenets set forth by the original master of the art. Subsequent masters are chosen to carry on the traditional teachings of that particular art. Often, the traditional martial art is rooted in a country’s history.
As such, traditional martial arts training implies that a student uphold the philosophical principles of the art and practice its techniques in a fashion similar to the founder’s or in the style’s natural progression".
I'm aware of many opinions regarding competition karate but I would argue that it is part of Wado Ryu and Jiyu Kumite certainly is. But, like the very interesting video from Russian TV, it (competition karate) doesn't get to the truth of the matter. Neither did the boxing unless the boxer is allowed to box, i.e., strike full contact!
It may not surprise you to know that I believe Wado Ryu provides all the techniques necessary to be very effective in the Octagon or anywhere else. I know Wado ryu requires a lifetime of study but a "traditional foundation in Wado Ryu karate" could be 8 -10 years training with a good Sensei. Based on regular practice of Kihon tsuki and keri, Renraku Waza, Kata, Kihon Gumite (I would include Ohyo Gumite and Sanbon Gumite) and Jiyu Kumite, Training at least four days a week for at least 2 hours per session.
I particularly like watching Lyoto Machida as I can clearly see the traditional karate in his movement and timing. One of those who may be on a slightly lower level at the moment is Craig Burke (4 - 0) who as far as I'm aware has a Wado Ryu background. There's a few of his fights on YT and I'm not sure if he is still competing but I hope to train at his MMA gym in Barnsley this year. Also I know Arthur Meek Sensei was running an MMA gym in Bridgewater.
Craig Burke training here:
https://youtu.be/yg8Wh1FZDrg
In my opinion, MMA raises a question mark over all traditional (empty hand) martial arts.
I agree that the video takes a negative view of all "traditional" martial arts in general and therefore seems to equate all karate with the "McDojo" model. Perhaps, unless it is tested in the reality of the Octagon. But the rise of MMA has presented a challenge to all traditional martial arts, including Wado Ryu. The following definition of traditional martial arts taken from the Black Belt website seems fair enough:
"Traditional martial arts training refers to training in a martial art that is rooted in the tenets set forth by the original master of the art. Subsequent masters are chosen to carry on the traditional teachings of that particular art. Often, the traditional martial art is rooted in a country’s history.
As such, traditional martial arts training implies that a student uphold the philosophical principles of the art and practice its techniques in a fashion similar to the founder’s or in the style’s natural progression".
I'm aware of many opinions regarding competition karate but I would argue that it is part of Wado Ryu and Jiyu Kumite certainly is. But, like the very interesting video from Russian TV, it (competition karate) doesn't get to the truth of the matter. Neither did the boxing unless the boxer is allowed to box, i.e., strike full contact!
It may not surprise you to know that I believe Wado Ryu provides all the techniques necessary to be very effective in the Octagon or anywhere else. I know Wado ryu requires a lifetime of study but a "traditional foundation in Wado Ryu karate" could be 8 -10 years training with a good Sensei. Based on regular practice of Kihon tsuki and keri, Renraku Waza, Kata, Kihon Gumite (I would include Ohyo Gumite and Sanbon Gumite) and Jiyu Kumite, Training at least four days a week for at least 2 hours per session.
I particularly like watching Lyoto Machida as I can clearly see the traditional karate in his movement and timing. One of those who may be on a slightly lower level at the moment is Craig Burke (4 - 0) who as far as I'm aware has a Wado Ryu background. There's a few of his fights on YT and I'm not sure if he is still competing but I hope to train at his MMA gym in Barnsley this year. Also I know Arthur Meek Sensei was running an MMA gym in Bridgewater.
Craig Burke training here:
https://youtu.be/yg8Wh1FZDrg
In my opinion, MMA raises a question mark over all traditional (empty hand) martial arts.
S.B.
Re: Wado Ryu in MMA?
Its interesting that now they are talking about Karate making a 'comeback' in MMA of late.With the likes of Conor McGregor and Steven Thompson applying a Karate base with much effectivness.So Wado, particularly with its emphasis on movement and taisaki in my opinion would be hold up very well.One would still needs to learn take down defence and practice defending of ones back to cover all possibilites.
If you watch McGregors fight against mendes he had much success with his front snap kick and spinning back kick.Apparently in MMA they say dont kick a wrestler because generally one trains the muay thai teep(front push kick) but with the front snap kick its like a whip and harder to catch.The front snap kick is Day one stuff in karate.Also if you look at the mechanics of how McGregor threw his front kick it was a very wado way of doing so.The knee doesn't come up high but the leg goes straight towards target.
If you watch McGregors fight against mendes he had much success with his front snap kick and spinning back kick.Apparently in MMA they say dont kick a wrestler because generally one trains the muay thai teep(front push kick) but with the front snap kick its like a whip and harder to catch.The front snap kick is Day one stuff in karate.Also if you look at the mechanics of how McGregor threw his front kick it was a very wado way of doing so.The knee doesn't come up high but the leg goes straight towards target.
Martin Duffy
Re: Wado Ryu in MMA?
Hi
Yes, I agree that Wado Ryu (and other ryu) have much to offer the MMA fighter.
Before the development of today's MMA I did used to regularly practice kumite with protective armour: headguard, body protecter, gloves etc. With throws and groundwork (from a couple of years basic Judo training). This method of training (for me) always seemed more useful for practicing the application of the basic techniques we polished in the dojo than shobu ippon/sanbon. I quickly found that a much shorter stance (compared to the wide/bouncing style which still seems popular) was more natural and wasted less energy! And this created the opportunity for a completely different maai (much closer to the opponent) where I started to understand some of the lessons contained within Kihon Gumite just that little bit more! Techniques that I could never score with in shiai, such as nagashizuki, made much more sense when making contact. Also, I/we found that these lessons could be learned by doing light (but making contact)) sparring to minimise injuries.
I know plenty of MMA fighters make the effort to visit and train at traditional karate dojo's and appreciate what Wado Ryu has to offer. But with a solid foundation in Wado Ryu along the lines described earlier, I've just got this feeling that any other training or methods practiced (such as Wrestling, Judo, BJJ or Boxing) would become part of your Wado Ryu rather than something separate!
Yes, I agree that Wado Ryu (and other ryu) have much to offer the MMA fighter.
Before the development of today's MMA I did used to regularly practice kumite with protective armour: headguard, body protecter, gloves etc. With throws and groundwork (from a couple of years basic Judo training). This method of training (for me) always seemed more useful for practicing the application of the basic techniques we polished in the dojo than shobu ippon/sanbon. I quickly found that a much shorter stance (compared to the wide/bouncing style which still seems popular) was more natural and wasted less energy! And this created the opportunity for a completely different maai (much closer to the opponent) where I started to understand some of the lessons contained within Kihon Gumite just that little bit more! Techniques that I could never score with in shiai, such as nagashizuki, made much more sense when making contact. Also, I/we found that these lessons could be learned by doing light (but making contact)) sparring to minimise injuries.
I know plenty of MMA fighters make the effort to visit and train at traditional karate dojo's and appreciate what Wado Ryu has to offer. But with a solid foundation in Wado Ryu along the lines described earlier, I've just got this feeling that any other training or methods practiced (such as Wrestling, Judo, BJJ or Boxing) would become part of your Wado Ryu rather than something separate!
S.B.
Re: Wado Ryu in MMA?
Hi
Craig Burke had another cancelled contest on 26/3 at CSFC (Caged Steel Fighting Championship)14 in Doncaster and there's a couple of others in his record. He may well be struggling to find opponents!
Craig Burke had another cancelled contest on 26/3 at CSFC (Caged Steel Fighting Championship)14 in Doncaster and there's a couple of others in his record. He may well be struggling to find opponents!
S.B.