ohyo gumite

[blackcat]

Thought I had better follow the rules and start a new thread - Wadoka told me off for topic drift a few weeks ago!
Picking up from the Kuzushi thread then...

Generic is what I mean Ben but in this case I am talking specifically of wado ryu ohyo gumite or if you like Yakusoku gumite.

I think that I would have to argue though at your designation of the kihon gumite aspect of wado being kata – unless you mean part of the process of kata analysis – because to my mind it is clearly open ended and would seem to form part of the greater process of developing one’s own understanding of wado ryu.
oneya

Probably I need to add some clarity to what I wrote then...my reference to Ohyo gumite as European is really to distinguish which kumite you meant. Of course, they are trained in most places where Tatsuo Suzuki and his team of instructors had an influence, so they spread to the minor colonies too...Maybe not everyone is aware (and certainly some of those who claim fanciful dan grades and titles to boot) these were a teaching tool developed for the UK and European dojo, they are not a direct inheritance from Otsuka sensei.

Ohyu gumite are a reflection of the 1950's Japan dojo fighting techniques, or at least those used in the Suzuki dojo, perhaps Nichidai but certainly those in the Aichi-ken* area. It seems like these ohyo gumite kata were not taught in Japan, they were constructed for the UK training syllabus. Same goes for Sambon Gumite. Modern Japanese (Wadokai) dojo all have their own kumite drills, individual to their dojo or cluster. There isn't a top down precription of techniques to train - different circumstances. In Suzuki sensei's case necessity was the mother of invention - how do you disseminate karate to people spread far and wide without access to weekly or daily instruction.

I don't think I designated kihon gumite as kata? However, these pair techniques we all train - kihon gumite, tanto dori etc - could be called kata, they are training forms to start us off. There can be many 'ura' to these too as you point out, they need not (or perhaps, should not, depends on skill level) be fixed forms. I think they are there to develop, but that is where a good instructor comes in..technical development easily becomes technical corruption unless the underlying principles remain intact.

Ben

* This is thread drift I know, but its just info, not a discussion point as such, Aichi prefecture dojo's were where Suzuki sensei established himself as a professional instructor from about 1955, when the Tsukiji 'Sanko' dojo closed. Some dojo were already established before he went there. This cluster of dojo within Wadokai group is called 'Aiwakai' - they have their 60th Anniversery this month in Japan.

[oneya]

Ah sorry Ben, a typo is responsible for the little confusion that has crept in here and its entirely my fault. I was thinking ohyo gumite but actually typed Kihon gumite by mistake in response to your initial question

“Do you mean ohyo gumite in the generic sense or specifically the widely trained kata used in European dojo?”

Which prompted my raised eyebrow at the kata designation for ohyo gumite and my typo that caused a new thread..!!

Having said that: I agree that kihon gumite and tanto dori are classified - at least in my mind - as kata and rightly so because they are part of its lineage. There's also very little doubt in my mind that the language difficulties on both sides in the early years were responsible for a gaps in the understanding of the wado ryu jigsaw but more than this it was a whole new ball game for both sides. I think part - perhaps much - of the problem with Suzuki sensei's Ohyo Gumite is that too many wado folk in the UK and Europe think of them and use them as kata and, in doing this, miss their essential freedom from the fundamental strictures of kata. It is not and can’t be omote kata as such. I had said all this before back a few years ago which is why I linked this to the article – ‘From Form to Function’ for Wado World - I found then and I still find now that this loosening of the strictures of kihon and kata as shown in ohyo gumite to be a major bridge to the pragmatism of jiyu gumite.

Having said that Ben, I thought I had clarified that I was not talking of the Suzuki series, I also took pains to clarify this in the Wado World article, I was simply talking of the Ohyo/Yakusoku of wado ryu in its generic functional sense.

So, on to Kuzushi...

oneya

[blackcat]

Ah sorry Ben, a typo is responsible for the little confusion that has crept in here and its entirely my fault. I was thinking ohyo gumite but actually typed Kihon gumite by mistake in response to your initial question

“Do you mean ohyo gumite in the generic sense or specifically the widely trained kata used in European dojo?”

Which prompted my raised eyebrow at the kata designation for ohyo gumite and my typo that caused a new thread..!!

Having said that: I agree that kihon gumite and tanto dori are classified - at least in my mind - as kata and rightly so because they are part of its lineage. There's also very little doubt in my mind that the language difficulties on both sides in the early years were responsible for a gaps in the understanding of the wado ryu jigsaw but more than this it was a whole new ball game for both sides. I think part - perhaps much - of the problem with Suzuki sensei's Ohyo Gumite is that too many wado folk in the UK and Europe think of them and use them as kata and, in doing this, miss their essential freedom from the fundamental strictures of kata. It is not and can’t be omote kata as such. I had said all this before back a few years ago which is why I linked this to the article – ‘From Form to Function’ for Wado World - I found then and I still find now that this loosening of the strictures of kihon and kata as shown in ohyo gumite to be a major bridge to the pragmatism of jiyu gumite.

Having said that Ben, I thought I had clarified that I was not talking of the Suzuki series, I also took pains to clarify this in the Wado World article, I was simply talking of the Ohyo/Yakusoku of wado ryu in its generic functional sense.

So, on to Kuzushi...

oneya

Corrected my spelling now (not going to own up to it - those that spotted it spotted it!). The confusion has provided us with a new thread so don't think thats a problem for any of us.

Perhaps the approach to ohyo gumite you describe is because they have become something used for gradings, rather than training tools? I rarely see anyone doing ushiro geri in jiyu kumite these days (didn't used to be the case) but the ohyo gumite retain this as a technique. I even watched a dvd recently in which a high grade wado karateka showed what I would describe as a donkey kick rather than ushiro geri as it should be done. Maybe the skill to perform it properly is disappearing.

Nothing else to add on kuzushi for now...its good, lets make sure we use it!

Ben