Given recent news events, I've been thinking a lot about the karate maxim, "karate ni sente nashi," meaning there is no first attack in karate, which reflects our commitment to self-defense.
I used to see the maxim exemplified in the three scoring tactics: sen sen no sen, sen no sen and go no sen. The Japanese words and definitions vary by style, it seems, but basically all three require the opponent to attack first, if only in the intention to attack (as in the case of sen sen no sen).
The problem comes when you pressure the opponent into attacking first, either psychologically or through manipulation of the ma ai. When you bait your opponent to attack, is this not attacking first? Is this not taking the initiative? And, sadly, is this not a violation of the maxim?
Then I struck upon an idea to help me resolve this conflict: kihon kumite, particularly the roles of ukemi and torimi. In kihon kumite, we know that two practitioners stand in musubi dachi. Suddenly, they both take up a threatening posture with fists raised along the seichusen, in this case called kamae. There is danger present.
It has been drilled into me that the taking up of kamae must happen at the same time. However, we also know that one person initiates the action, which leads the other person to reflexively follow suit in what seems like a simultaneous movement. The one who initiates has established himself or herself as ukemi.
I believe it is ukemi who violates the maxim and "attacks first," while torimi maintains the honor and claim to self defense. Never mind that no attacks have happened yet. Much like sen sen no sen, it is the intent of ukemi to adopt a threatening posture that is most important. It also does not matter what happens after this, i.e. the roles do not change for the duration of the engagement. Does this theory satisfy karate ni sente nashi? Thoughts?
-tom kaneshige
revisiting karate ni sente nashi
Re: revisiting karate ni sente nashi
Tom,
These are my thoughts on this subject.
First I don't see Wado as a form of self defense.
That is not to say I see it as a form of self offense.
I see it as just Budo. The ultimate aim I think is to stop the violent engagement.
The best way is for it to never get started.
The next best way is to be victorious - however you decide to define that.
But the next best way is by definition already a loss because once it starts you already lost.
But better to lose than to LOSE.
In the context of kihon kumite I have to first sense 'intent'. That is the cue. I need to perceive their 'intent'.
Then I react according to the maai required for the intent I perceived.
So in the kata done at the highest level both sides appear to move simultaneously. An outsider looking in should not see anyone reacting to anything. They just see two bodies moving in unison because the perception of intent should be strong.
From that point the one who stepped physically back (but stepped mentally forward) is attacking the whole time.
You smell (sense) 'intent' so you attack. In real life a glare might be all that is required. Or a smile.
Think about the Japanese word for 'being careful' - kiotsukeru. Ki o tsukeru when examined means 'place your ki on it' as in place your ki on your opponent. Thought it was an interesting digression since you are a word guy... ;)
These are my thoughts on this subject.
First I don't see Wado as a form of self defense.
That is not to say I see it as a form of self offense.
I see it as just Budo. The ultimate aim I think is to stop the violent engagement.
The best way is for it to never get started.
The next best way is to be victorious - however you decide to define that.
But the next best way is by definition already a loss because once it starts you already lost.
But better to lose than to LOSE.
In the context of kihon kumite I have to first sense 'intent'. That is the cue. I need to perceive their 'intent'.
Then I react according to the maai required for the intent I perceived.
So in the kata done at the highest level both sides appear to move simultaneously. An outsider looking in should not see anyone reacting to anything. They just see two bodies moving in unison because the perception of intent should be strong.
From that point the one who stepped physically back (but stepped mentally forward) is attacking the whole time.
You smell (sense) 'intent' so you attack. In real life a glare might be all that is required. Or a smile.
Think about the Japanese word for 'being careful' - kiotsukeru. Ki o tsukeru when examined means 'place your ki on it' as in place your ki on your opponent. Thought it was an interesting digression since you are a word guy... ;)
Bob Nash
Re: revisiting karate ni sente nashi
By the way Tom, many people who read this do not read the news in the States.
So they don't know that it is legal in Florida to shoot and kill black kids wearing hoodies.
So they don't know that it is legal in Florida to shoot and kill black kids wearing hoodies.
Bob Nash
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tkaneshige
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Re: revisiting karate ni sente nashi
Excellent points, Bob. The judicial system at times cruelly, tragically lags behind the truth. Karate, though, has given me a framework for thinking about what happened.
On a side note, I have a question about the ability to perceive or sense your opponent's intent in kihon kumite and the taking up of kamae. If done at a high level, you say, torimi and ukemi appear to move in unison because torimi's perception of ukemi's intent is so strong. I'm familiar with this concept (in theory, of course, because I can't do any of it).
So here's my question: If torimi's perception is really strong, wouldn't torimi clearly move first?
I've read that when ukemi intends to move, there is a .5 second gap between the decision and the start of the movement. If torimi has mushin, meaning his body is free to move without the mind (read: no gap), then torimi begins taking up kamae or entering into ukemi's space at the moment of perception when ukemi is at standstill.
Thus, torimi is essentially hitting in the gap.
As I've said, it's all still theoretical for me -- but I'm trying.
-tom kaneshige
On a side note, I have a question about the ability to perceive or sense your opponent's intent in kihon kumite and the taking up of kamae. If done at a high level, you say, torimi and ukemi appear to move in unison because torimi's perception of ukemi's intent is so strong. I'm familiar with this concept (in theory, of course, because I can't do any of it).
So here's my question: If torimi's perception is really strong, wouldn't torimi clearly move first?
I've read that when ukemi intends to move, there is a .5 second gap between the decision and the start of the movement. If torimi has mushin, meaning his body is free to move without the mind (read: no gap), then torimi begins taking up kamae or entering into ukemi's space at the moment of perception when ukemi is at standstill.
Thus, torimi is essentially hitting in the gap.
As I've said, it's all still theoretical for me -- but I'm trying.
-tom kaneshige
Re: revisiting karate ni sente nashi
Tom,
Think about it this way.
If you end up moving before because you have super sensivity perception then you will die....
Because you can then get faked out and end up with the wrong maai.
Imagine both people holding swords.
You have to place yourself in a precise position. That precise position unfolds as the initiator moves.
There is no there there to move to until the guy starts to move.
You don't have to wait til he stops moving. You just have to have a sense of where and how deep and that doesn't unfold until he moves.
Moving and landing it a precise place relative to the maai is part of mikiri - the ability to perceive the end point of the attack.
First move in Chinto.
Think about it this way.
If you end up moving before because you have super sensivity perception then you will die....
Because you can then get faked out and end up with the wrong maai.
Imagine both people holding swords.
You have to place yourself in a precise position. That precise position unfolds as the initiator moves.
There is no there there to move to until the guy starts to move.
You don't have to wait til he stops moving. You just have to have a sense of where and how deep and that doesn't unfold until he moves.
Moving and landing it a precise place relative to the maai is part of mikiri - the ability to perceive the end point of the attack.
First move in Chinto.
Bob Nash
Re: revisiting karate ni sente nashi
Ko-Bo-Ittai ?
I think Reg had an essay on Kihon Kumite on Wado World, but for some reason I can’t find the site now so maybe it has been taken down.
There was also an essay on Uke and Tori (again by Reg I think) which went a long way to explain the relationship between the two in kata.
As Bob Says, put two pieces of razor sharp steel in your hands and its whole new ball game. If you act as if you are a victim, your numbers more than likely up (in a very short space of time).
I think Reg had an essay on Kihon Kumite on Wado World, but for some reason I can’t find the site now so maybe it has been taken down.
There was also an essay on Uke and Tori (again by Reg I think) which went a long way to explain the relationship between the two in kata.
As Bob Says, put two pieces of razor sharp steel in your hands and its whole new ball game. If you act as if you are a victim, your numbers more than likely up (in a very short space of time).
Re: revisiting karate ni sente nashi
Hmmm.
I thought I posted something last night but I don't see it.
So if it shows up then I will delete this one.
I was telling Tom that the initial interaction in kihon kumite of one person stepping forward and one stepping back is actually in my opinion the third level of engagement. What I mean is that there are two higher preferred options.
The highest level of engagement is for you to stop your opponent from moving.
You sense their intent and you counter with your ki. I use the word ki loosely in a Japanese context.
(Tom, don't get excited. I know this gets you all worked up, lol).
So you stop them without you physically moving.
The second level is that you sense their intent. Then you counter by cutting them off by getting in their path.
You do this both physically and mentally. You freeze them and you don't allow them any freedom to move by taking up physical space.
The third is when you sense their intent, they step forward and you step back taking up the correct maai for you.
The second is easy if you can do the first. The second gets you killed if you can't do the first.
I thought I posted something last night but I don't see it.
So if it shows up then I will delete this one.
I was telling Tom that the initial interaction in kihon kumite of one person stepping forward and one stepping back is actually in my opinion the third level of engagement. What I mean is that there are two higher preferred options.
The highest level of engagement is for you to stop your opponent from moving.
You sense their intent and you counter with your ki. I use the word ki loosely in a Japanese context.
(Tom, don't get excited. I know this gets you all worked up, lol).
So you stop them without you physically moving.
The second level is that you sense their intent. Then you counter by cutting them off by getting in their path.
You do this both physically and mentally. You freeze them and you don't allow them any freedom to move by taking up physical space.
The third is when you sense their intent, they step forward and you step back taking up the correct maai for you.
The second is easy if you can do the first. The second gets you killed if you can't do the first.
Bob Nash
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tkaneshige
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Re: revisiting karate ni sente nashi
What?! Bob used the word "ki"?! I'm so happy (sniff, sniff).
Seriously, though, I really like your three levels of engagement and the existence of a higher state of budo, one built on ki and mushin (which relates to the ability to sense an opponent's intent). I'm also wondering if the second level of engagement is somehow related to the .5 second gap.
Is all of this a bit farfetched?
I'm not sure, but I think I've seen it. I've watched a border collie gain control of a flock of sheep -- called "lifting" -- without changing positions or barking or making any other physical movement. Rather, the collie shoots intense energy toward the sheep using what ranchers call "the eye" to basically immobilize the entire flock. After lifting the sheep, the collie physically moves the sheep by manipulating the maai.
If a dog can do it...
-tom kaneshige
Seriously, though, I really like your three levels of engagement and the existence of a higher state of budo, one built on ki and mushin (which relates to the ability to sense an opponent's intent). I'm also wondering if the second level of engagement is somehow related to the .5 second gap.
Is all of this a bit farfetched?
I'm not sure, but I think I've seen it. I've watched a border collie gain control of a flock of sheep -- called "lifting" -- without changing positions or barking or making any other physical movement. Rather, the collie shoots intense energy toward the sheep using what ranchers call "the eye" to basically immobilize the entire flock. After lifting the sheep, the collie physically moves the sheep by manipulating the maai.
If a dog can do it...
-tom kaneshige
Re: revisiting karate ni sente nashi
Hi Tom,
Let's be a bit careful with our choice of words, after all words are the tools of your profession. :)
Mushin doesn't not necessarily have anything to do with intent or reading intent.
Mushin is a a higher level of zoning out so to speak in that your ego is not present. You just are.
Anyone can learn to attain this state with a little practice and proper instruction.
But the ability to read intent...that can be something as simple as picking up on something in the opponent's body language. You are not reading their mind. You are reading their intent which is being manifested somehow in their body. You are subconsciously or consciously seeing his signals.
A body twitch, a slight change in balance or posture, facial expression, upper lip moving, microexpressions, whatever.
We give off a ton of signals before we move. It's there if you know how and where to look.
Google Paul Ekman. He was (recently retired) a psychologist at UC San Francisco who has done a lot of research in this area.
Let's be a bit careful with our choice of words, after all words are the tools of your profession. :)
Mushin doesn't not necessarily have anything to do with intent or reading intent.
Mushin is a a higher level of zoning out so to speak in that your ego is not present. You just are.
Anyone can learn to attain this state with a little practice and proper instruction.
But the ability to read intent...that can be something as simple as picking up on something in the opponent's body language. You are not reading their mind. You are reading their intent which is being manifested somehow in their body. You are subconsciously or consciously seeing his signals.
A body twitch, a slight change in balance or posture, facial expression, upper lip moving, microexpressions, whatever.
We give off a ton of signals before we move. It's there if you know how and where to look.
Google Paul Ekman. He was (recently retired) a psychologist at UC San Francisco who has done a lot of research in this area.
Bob Nash
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tkaneshige
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:35 pm
Re: revisiting karate ni sente nashi
The best working border collies (as opposed to show dogs) are valued at up to $30k each, which, of course, means they're also used for breeding stock. I suspect all the top border collies sit on the border collie jedi council.
-tom kaneshige
-tom kaneshige