Can Kata from other systems be Wadoized?

[Gusei21]

wadoizing ourselves first is the priority.

As your guvnor once gently reminded me Gordon this is a very long process though. All that stretching, smoothing and shaping our physical self to be more encompassing when working for that fluid and seamless motion in the process of wado ryu takes a while. If I remember rightly he said: the wado kata we already have is where we measure any progress. What is frustrating (to me) is the mind is apt to take longer than the physical body to change.

I doubt I could find time to take on new kata.

oneya

So lets talk about this. Why do you suppose Shiomitsu Sensei said 'the wado kata we already have is where we measure any progress'?

Many don't appreciate why we do solo kata in Wado ryu. That's why they want to go beyond the 9.

Why do we need more kata? What are these people doing who think we need more kata? They are clueless.
We don't do kata in Wado to accumulate more bunkai. That's what Okinawans do.
We do kata in Wado to figure out how to move. How many kata do you need for that? Even 9 is too many.
How to move is a lifetime's work of study.

There are only two reasons I can think of for a higher dan to encourage their students to learn more kata.
1) So they can be competitive in competition (yes I think this is important for all karate people at some point in their career).
2) To better appreciate the kata of other styles for historical or technical purposes.
3) To pass the JKF black belt exam or your country's National black belt exam if so required.

But for the Wadoka who are engaged in studying just Wado, asking for more than 9 means you are clueless.

Yes I do bassai of shitoryu (see 2 and 3), yes I used to do nipaipo and suparimpei (see 1). But number 1 is no longer a concern of mine and right now I am not so interested in number 2. To study Wado for the sake of Wado only 9 is necessary.

It's one thing to put in Unsu or Suparimpei because we arguably had it at one time before Otsuka Sensei tossed it in the bin but to add Annan to the Wado list....I don't get it.

[oneya]

but to add Annan to the Wado list....I don't get it.

Because there is nothing for wado ryu to ‘get’ Bob.

To my mind Ohtsuka meijin’s wado ryu has moved beyond the simple conundrum of self-defence into the cultural ethics of a society at large. Annan is an Okinawan type kata and that has to change its premise of self-defence if it is to become a wado ryu kata. The annexation of Okinawa itself meant it had to change in the same way that its Annan kata would need to change to enable it to be viewed through Ohtsuka meijin’s prism for wado ryu. If Wado ryu was essentially a ‘new’ martial art form for Japan in peace-time its kata has to be a paradigm of a country at peace with itself and the world at large. Ohtsuka’s vision in 1935 was of a Japan developing in the continuing peace. This same peace was the informed choice Japan was able to make 10 years later in August 1945. A rational choice made possible because Japan understood the extreme cost of further warfare to its society and people.

This is the same informed choice Takamura sensei of TSYR speaks of in discussing the matter of pacifism when he said:

“A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence. He chooses peace.”


A philosophical view might be that; Okinawan karate kata embodies a ‘self-defence’ pro forma, while the wado ryu kata logic is one of a society dealing with the eternal dilemma of violence and pacifism. The essential difference could be seen as the self-defence logic capable of fostering a siege mentality while the nature of harmony unshackles the mind.

oneya

[Gusei21]

Reg,

So..you say:

To my mind Ohtsuka meijin’s wado ryu has moved beyond the simple conundrum of self-defence into the cultural ethics of a society at large. Annan is an Okinawan type kata and that has to change its premise of self-defence if it is to become a wado ryu kata. If Wado ryu was essentially a ‘new’ martial art form for Japan in peace-time its kata has to be a paradigm of a country at peace with itself and the world at large. Ohtsuka’s vision in 1935 was of a Japan developing in the continuing peace. This same peace was the informed choice Japan was able to make 10 years later in August 1945. A rational choice made possible because Japan understood the extreme cost of further warfare to its society and people.

This is the same informed choice Takamura sensei of TSYR speaks of in discussing the matter of pacifism when he said:

“A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence. He chooses peace.”

The essential difference could be seen as the self-defence logic capable of fostering a siege mentality while the nature of harmony unshackles the mind.



Just thinking out loud here….because I tend to see things from my much mangled prism...and having grown up listening to old Japanese men who were former Class A war criminals talk about world peace (Ryoichi Sasakawa - google is your friend)

As you know, Japan is not allowed to have a regular standing army. They are forced by their constitution to have a Self Defense Force. Their military is not allowed to have offensive capabilities.
Recently there has been a renewed outcry in the Japanese government to amend the constitution so they can ‘reclaim their manhood’ so to speak. Many of the right wing feel they have been emasculated by General Douglas McArthur. And this sentiment always gets a negative reaction from the neighbors of Japan (China, Korea) because they experienced Japan during its ‘pre-emasculation’ days and had to endure tremendous suffering because it seems that whenever the Japanese boys start playing with sharp toys they seem to get out of hand and get quite ruthless, especially if you are on the receiving end of things.
So when you say the word “peace’ and 1935 in the same breathe I recall from history that peace back then meant Japan as the conqueror having vanquished all lands bringing Pax Nipponia to the rest of Asia.

The few intellectuals who sought to oppose the military establishment were silenced. It’s sort of like they don’t have the maturity to handle power as a nation. I always drew inspiration from the select few who voiced opposition to the aggressive military expansion. And towards the end of the debacle I look upon with admiration the spirit and efforts of people like Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto and our Emperor Hirohito for trying to bring an end to the war. I don’t blame MacArthur for defanging the beast. It can’t be trusted. It’s in our nature. And that is why the quote from Takamura Sensei carries more weight. We are violent by nature. But the best of us embrace this violence and don’t repress it. Instead we train in it and make friends with it. And that is why the few of us who can tame the beast have the ability to choose. The ability to choose to kill or not to kill. People controlled by fear or stupidity (same thing) will always kill and ask questions later/or never ask questions since asking questions implies you have half a brain. It is an automatic response. People who have tamed the beast always have the psychological space to ponder, to weigh, to adapt. The result is an informed choice. Sometimes people die. Sometimes they live. We train to kill and hope to survive. In this context we have the ethos of Japanese Budo. Self defense is for the people who don’t fight. It is for the victims. Okinawa was a victim of Japan. They were not allowed to arm themselves for many years. It was forbidden. They were outgunned, outnumbered. So offense is out of the question. Only self defense. But mainland Japan has always been about offense. There is defense in the offense, there is offense in the offense.
I’m not sure what Otsuka Sensei saw postwar. As I reread what I wrote I want to restate that this Japanese budo ethos predates WWII. It is an underlying current that has existed since around the 1100’s preceding the Kamakura Period and the Gempei war. Powerful men have always wanted to rule, to control. And they used military might. Obviously Japan is not unique in this reqard. But the ethos, the psychology, the rationale, in that there are many things uniquely Japanese and the best of that became a central part of Budo. Budo in its ideal form eschew violence. Yet it is all about violence. It is this wonderful paradox that drives the Gaijin nuts.
Just my random thoughts for the day.

For myself whenever I learn something new in class the first thing I ask myself is - so how does this help me blow stuff up? I just want 'kaboom'. Yes I am hopeless...

[mspain]

Thank you Reg and Bob for your insights.

If I may ask, could you post what Mr. Otsuka's intentions and responsibilities were during the years before WW II and during WW II? I have read a little of what he did post WWII. I can't remember exactly where that was.

As for that same line of thought: What were any of the budo masters (Ueshiba, etc.) roles immediately before and during WW II?

Of course this depends if that information is available and you are aware of it.

I realize that strictly this is off topic, however, it would have to do with the thinking involved and what may affect "Wadoizing", "Aikidoizing", etc.

Thank you,

MSpain

[Gusei21]

Thank you Reg and Bob for your insights.

If I may ask, could you post what Mr. Otsuka's intentions and responsibilities were during the years before WW II and during WW II? I have read a little of what he did post WWII. I can't remember exactly where that was.

As for that same line of thought: What were any of the budo masters (Ueshiba, etc.) roles immediately before and during WW II?

Of course this depends if that information is available and you are aware of it.

I realize that strictly this is off topic, however, it would have to do with the thinking involved and what may affect "Wadoizing", "Aikidoizing", etc.

Thank you,

MSpain

No clue what Otsuka Sensei was doing.
But I do know that Uyeshiba was teaching the military how to use aikido for combat.
But from what I read he was quoted as saying he wasn't feeling fulfilled doing it. I took it as what he was teaching was not something that really interested him from a technical standpoint. His aikido is too sophisticated to dumb down for the battlefield.
Many martial artists were right wing. They bought into the whole motherland expansion we are destined to rule the world myth. But I think we should not expect anything more than this since most of them were mental neanderthals.

Yesterday I mentioned Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto as someone I respected as a person during WWII. He planned and led the successful tactical attack on Pearl Harbor. There was a movie that came out called Admiral Yamamoto. If you can get it then watch it. Of course the movie as most movies do tend to exaggerate or gloss over certain facts but all in all I enjoyed it.

[oneya]

Hi Bob, sorry for the confusion:

So when you say the word “peace’ and 1935 in the same breathe I recall from history that peace back then meant Japan as the conqueror having vanquished all lands bringing Pax Nipponia to the rest of Asia.

I was thinking maybe: with Nanking, Singapore, Burma and Pearl Harbour still yet to feel the warmth of the rising sun it was more Ohtsuka’s ‘vision’ of a peaceful homeland in 1935 that I was raising Bob rather than holding any illusions of a warm and cuddly Kempei tai or guys like Sasakawa. He’d be right up there alongside the A class war criminals that history has listed in many countries and we’re still breeding 'em today.

As you say Japan was defanged [no provision for Hamon available - edit - well there was but it was a bit too drastic] and was given the different incentive to ‘endure the unendurable’ and was able to return to the sandpit to practice kata until she demonstrated the control and balance we can see today.

It was obviously a different road but it sure brings to mind the old meijin’s vision.

oneya

[oneya]

Thank you Reg and Bob for your insights.

If I may ask, could you post what Mr. Otsuka's intentions and responsibilities were during the years before WW II and during WW II? I have read a little of what he did post WWII. I can't remember exactly where that was.

I realize that strictly this is off topic, however, it would have to do with the thinking involved and what may affect "Wadoizing", "Aikidoizing", etc.

Thank you,

MSpain

Hi Mike,

I have no specific information of this either. Kendo, Iaido, Kyudo, Judo and Aikido all spring to mind as different and developing methods of introspection and maturation within Japanese martial arts.

It also occurs to me that 'wa ten chi jin no ri do' is the notion that runs through much of this.

oneya

[mspain]

Thanks again for the replies.

Mike Spain