Can Kata from other systems be Wadoized?

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
mezusmo
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Can Kata from other systems be Wadoized?

Post by mezusmo »

Hi,Is this a Goju ryu kata Wadoized?

I have never heard of other kata from other systems being Wadoized but i am not a expert or a scholar.Can this process take place if the practitioner is accomplished in Wado?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8yXg8ADpZo
Martin Duffy
Gusei21
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Re: Can Kata from other systems be Wadoized?

Post by Gusei21 »

That is the kata Annan.
It is a Ryuei ryu kata done here by Sakumoto Sensei, the Technical head of Ryuei Ryu former 3 time WKF World kata champion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SugmDuEwhzo

Shito ryu also added it to their curriculum.
Done here by Antonio Diaz, current WKF world champion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6cA4F5pXOY

I know I did not exactly address your question.
Otsuka Sensei Wadoized many kata. If anyone thinks they have anything of value to add to Otsuka Sensei's life work then why not?
It is not a crime to be an idiot.

I don't think Sakagami Sensei is trying to Wadoize Annan. I think he is just trying to learn it. Nothing wrong with that.
Kudos to him for trying to learn new kata. Not sure why it got put on youtube. It doesn't seem fair to him since he is obviously still a beginner in that kata.
Bob Nash
mezusmo
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Re: Can Kata from other systems be Wadoized?

Post by mezusmo »

Gusei21 wrote:That is the kata Annan.
It is a Ryuei ryu kata done here by Sakumoto Sensei, the Technical head of Ryuei Ryu former 3 time WKF World kata champion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SugmDuEwhzo

Shito ryu also added it to their curriculum.
Done here by Antonio Diaz, current WKF world champion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6cA4F5pXOY

I know I did not exactly address your question.
Otsuka Sensei Wadoized many kata. If anyone thinks they have anything of value to add to Otsuka Sensei's life work then why not?
It is not a crime to be an idiot.

I don't think Sakagami Sensei is trying to Wadoize Annan. I think he is just trying to learn it. Nothing wrong with that.
Kudos to him for trying to learn new kata. Not sure why it got put on youtube. It doesn't seem fair to him since he is obviously still a beginner in that kata.

Thank you for the links.
So he is not trying to Wadoize the kata just learn it,fair game!
(i'm not saying he cant wadoize it i'm not in a position to judge)
Martin Duffy
Tim49
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Re: Can Kata from other systems be Wadoized?

Post by Tim49 »

mezusmo wrote:
Thank you for the links.
So he is not trying to Wadoize the kata just learn it,fair game!
(i'm not saying he cant wadoize it i'm not in a position to judge)
I would also say that any kata that is performed/learned from another system by someone as steeped in Wado as Sakagami Sensei is bound to be Wadoized in its own way, he wouldn’t be able to help himself, it would be an uphill battle and probably against his nature to perform like an Okinawan karateka. And I suspect if he tried it would turn into a parody or an empty pastiche.

Just my thoughts.

Tim Shaw
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oneya
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Re: Can Kata from other systems be Wadoized?

Post by oneya »

Given that a pastiche is meant to 'celebrate' a former work by another artist I doubt very much that this was Sakagami sensei's intention Tim and certainly it wouldn't be a parody because it would reflect badly for any Wado nature. I would tend to agree with Bob because it certainly looks like a work in the process of being learned and a very long way from being 'wadoised' whatever that means.

If we want to talk 'parody' what is mildly interesting is why anyone would film Sakumoto sensei of Ryuei Ryu from only the waist up when performing Annan kata. A little known kata before he brought it to the fore in international competition and launched both himself and Annan kata into World class status.

oneya.
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
mezusmo
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Re: Can Kata from other systems be Wadoized?

Post by mezusmo »

I can understand Tim's point, his wado movement would naturally make its way into the kata as he performs it,maybe he wouldn't be wadoizing it so to speak but for sure it would influence it,nearly impossible not to i guess.
Martin Duffy
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Re: Can Kata from other systems be Wadoized?

Post by wadopaul »

Shibmori Sensei of IWKU teaches a Wado version of Anann. He would be the technical advisor i guess for Wado in WUKF. They have even included it on their Wado Tokui kata list. I learned it a while back, though i haven't practiced at all since. Can kata from other styles be Wadoized? I guess so. I think Wadokai had Unsu at one time.

Ohtsuka taught 9 core kata as essential to Wado Ryu, most organisations i'm aware of teach 15 offical Wado kata (16 if some include Supraempi). All that said i read somewhere that Ohtuska knew somewhere in the region of 30 kata, and i would assume he would have performed them in his own style. I guess its down to whoever "wadoizes" the kata. Anann is interesting in that it has a differnt way of turning than Wado katas, so i suppose it brings something else to the table so to speak. However i would be wary of the need to Wadoize katas from others styles. There's plenty in the 9 core kata alone in my opinion. What would kata from other styles add to the pot?
wadoka
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Re: Can Kata from other systems be Wadoized?

Post by wadoka »

Unless the majority of us can stop stomping around, and I firmly count myself in that, then wadoizing ourselves first is the priority before even thinking of any other kata.

The only jiin I would like is with tonic thank you very much.
Tim49
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Re: Can Kata from other systems be Wadoized?

Post by Tim49 »

wadoka wrote:Unless the majority of us can stop stomping around, and I firmly count myself in that, then wadoizing ourselves first is the priority before even thinking of any other kata.

The only jiin I would like is with tonic thank you very much.
Gordon is right. Maybe we are making an assumption here that our own kata is ‘Wadoised’?

Back to the Youtube of Sakagami Sensei working it out. I reckon what we see is perhaps a kata being ‘Sakagamised’, or if it were me, the same would apply.

So, for me the line of enquiry seems to take me towards the idea that it may not be the kata itself as a ‘form’ but the intent and ideas contained within. A bit like looking at the vessel rather than the fluid contained therein.

Now I don’t know Annan kata but I would wonder what within the form would remain compatible with the logic of Wado and what would be a step too far? Bear in mind that even within the core 9 Wado kata there are degrees of formalism which have to remain intact, for reasons discussed on this forum ad nauseam.

Tim Shaw
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oneya
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Re: Can Kata from other systems be Wadoized?

Post by oneya »

wadoka wrote: wadoizing ourselves first is the priority.
As your guvnor once gently reminded me Gordon this is a very long process though. All that stretching, smoothing and shaping our physical self to be more encompassing when working for that fluid and seamless motion in the process of wado ryu takes a while. If I remember rightly he said: the wado kata we already have is where we measure any progress. What is frustrating (to me) is the mind is apt to take longer than the physical body to change.

I doubt I could find time to take on new kata.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
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