The future of Wado ryu

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
mezusmo
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:08 pm

The future of Wado ryu

Post by mezusmo »

Are people hopeful that Wado ryu will continue down a undiluted path in the decades to come.I know its a bit of a hypothetical question,but a important one nonetheless.Looking at the spread of Wado ryu throughout Europe and its many Wado based styles that went their own way it already seems shaky ground.Leaving those groups aside and looking at the 3 main organizations now, can people be confident in the directions that will be taken in its progression forward.The talk of internal power leaves one thinking that much has been lost(in this area) or only exists in a minute pocket leaves me wondering even more.
Martin Duffy
lmccoy
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Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:07 pm

Re: The future of Wado ryu

Post by lmccoy »

I guess this might be an alright place to introduce myself. Back in 1987 I studied Wado in a makeshift dojo (wood floor in Quonset hut in Camp Lejeune). It was not the first karate I studied but it was unique and different from anything else I had seen. I have been doing Wado kata and kihon ever since, but the only thing I am actively taking lessons in now is Tai Chi. I think real karate in general not just Wado is on a decline here in the US. For example Kyokushinkai here used to be huge. Perhaps it is just an old man's belief in the good old days but I seem to remember far more dojos with serious student. What I see now are almost all child classes that do not even teach real kata. I am all for teaching children and adapting what you teach but what I see goes way to far. I don't think extiction is a problem, at least not for several generations. Lost knowlege? I doubt it, I am in awe at some of what I read on this board and honored that people on your level are willing to let me on to chat. I do however at least in the US see less chance for people to continue study in our increasingly mobile society. Anyway as one of the least knowledgable on the site I definitely plan on doing mostly reading and not very much replying. Respectfully, Len McCoy
Gusei21
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Re: The future of Wado ryu

Post by Gusei21 »

Just my opinion and I will only address the JKF Wadokai -
I know that Takagi Sensei is doing his best to make sure that the Wado as he knows it to be will somehow remain intact.
The Technical committee is failing individuals in advanced grading who do not exhibit what he calls 'the suchness of Wado'. It doesn't matter how good you are or how popular you are or how many kata competitions you have won. If you don't display the 'suchness of Wado' you are not passing those grades.

When I look at the landscape of JKF Wadokai with its plethora of instructors in Japan (I am not counting anyone outside ofJapan to keep it simple) I think there are enough people there to keep it going when the Arakawa, Hakoishi, Takagi eras are over. The good thing is that we are huge in number so it is harder to derail a large entity. It might never be the same but I don't think it will go down the gutter either.

As for the internal stuff, it has always been there. But like any other martial art only a few get exposed to it.
This seems to be quite normal. Aikido, Daito ryu seems to be the same. They talk internal but only a few have it.
When Wado started only Otsuka Sensei had it and in keeping with tradition it was done but never talked about. And like any other traditional art the teacher dropped a few seeds to see if anyone was willing to grasp them and run with them.
So if one were to look at a statistical distribution bell curve I think we are quite normal in that regard.
It isn't for everyone. And that is fine. Not everyone needs a turbo charged engine under the hood. Most people who come to martial arts is not here for that. Wado offers so much more. And doing the internal stuff is a big pain in the ass. It takes a lot of time and dedication that most of us can't afford because it isn't about learning a few new tricks. It's about reconditioning your body which takes a lot of time. Your tissues have to physically change. You have to rewire your neuropathways. You have to activate your fascia in ways that most people would never envision. Most of us have jobs, families. other commitments. There isn't enough time in the day to work this stuff to affect any serious change. Hopefully in each generation there will be one or two and a few that kind of knows what is really going on but are really only works in progress. What is wonderful about the internal stuff is that you can't fake it. If you fake it you will be found out. In that way it is cut and dry. People can talk all day long about this stuff but then ask to touch them. Lay a hand on them. You will know.

So putting the internal stuff aside, there is so much more to Wado than that. I believe the Wadokai will be fine. And I also believe that Wado in general will be fine. If you really want to know how to do this stuff (I mean Wado stuff in general and not just the internal stuff) all you need to do is ask or search and the appropriate teacher will appear. At least that has always been my experience. People say I have been spoiled but then again the world has gotten a lot smaller due to the internet so there shouldn't be any excuses I think. Put aside the labels of Wadokai, Wadoryu, WIKF. The people who know are out there. You should be able to find the appropriate teacher for what you need at the moment provided you are willing to jump through a few hoops. There are still enough good people out there in my opinion.

On a separate note I think what would be great is if instructors could get together in an open seminar and exchange ideas and teaching methodologies. There is always a better way to teach this stuff. I am constantly discovering new and better (at least I think so) ways of teaching this stuff and I would love to exchange ideas with like minded people who speak my language. This stuff is endless...or 'infinite like the Universe' if I am quoting the founder. It is truly endless.
Bob Nash
Tim49
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Re: The future of Wado ryu

Post by Tim49 »

A couple of observations.
Firstly the Wado we see today (in whatever guise) is nowhere near a finished article – I doubt that there ever will be a finished article as the nature of everything is to change. Ohtsuka himself said this.

He is also credited as commenting on his disappointment as to how many of his senior students didn’t ‘get it’. The legacy of many a great man no doubt. What amuses and depresses me by equal measure is that although he left some pretty clear markers they seem to have passed people by.

From my angle there’s a lot of running around trying to find short cuts into master Ohtsuka’s thinking and methodology, yet as always, the answers are in plain sight – but that’s too much like hard work, particularly when the novelties of oblique resources are sooo enticing.

What I fear is that Wado will become ossified. Sadly I can already see evidence of this beginning to happen.

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK
Gusei21
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Re: The future of Wado ryu

Post by Gusei21 »

Hi Tim,

Can you elaborate on what you mean by ossified?
Besides things turning into bone I see it can also mean: To mold into a rigidly conventional pattern.

Are you meaning that you fear we are becoming more shotokanesque in that we have patterns and drills that are exacting and uniform?

And what are you seeing that is hidden in plain sight and how can we get more people to see this stuff?
Bob Nash
Tim49
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Re: The future of Wado ryu

Post by Tim49 »

Gusei21 wrote:Hi Tim,

Can you elaborate on what you mean by ossified?
Besides things turning into bone I see it can also mean: To mold into a rigidly conventional pattern.

Are you meaning that you fear we are becoming more shotokanesque in that we have patterns and drills that are exacting and uniform?

And what are you seeing that is hidden in plain sight and how can we get more people to see this stuff?
Hi Bob,
I guess what I mean by ‘ossified’ is shackled to rigid exterior form. At the risk of mixing my metaphors, it’s a ‘carved in stone’ attitude towards Wado. It is my view that this attitude will become more dominant, particularly when the senior luminaries have passed away. Nothing to do with Shotokan. Shotokan is Shotokan, the only time Wado moves anywhere near Shotokan is when Wado practitioners ‘Shotokan-up’ their kata performances for competitions.

As for ‘hidden in plain sight’, I’m not referring to anything metaphysical, I think you know what I mean. But how to get more people to see this stuff? Well I don’t think the answer is in words alone; theory needs to be backed up by practice and example. I also think that these elements need to be enshrined as part of objectives which require to be met for recognition of advancement. Grades should not be given for rigid static form or for ‘more speed and more power’.

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK
oneya
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Re: The future of Wado ryu

Post by oneya »

Hi Martin,

we are close to half a century now for western wado ryu development and as far as I can see there are some fairly deep pockets of wado wisdom laying around the western world of wado but yours is an interesting question. It is made even more interesting (for me anyway) by your predicate of “the 3 main organisations” without naming which three organisations you have in mind. I’d be interested in your reasoning for the selection process ?

As to the future: Bob has opted - very wisely – to voice his view of the future as far as JKF Wado kai in Japan is concerned and it is heartening to see meritocracy as a cornerstone in the structure of their pedagogy and qualification. I have no doubt that the promise assured in this view of the future is brought about by the fact that its (JFK Wado Kai) collegiate lineage and process lays in the traditional dojo practices of gendai ryu and, particularly in wado ryu’s case, its heritage from koryu down through the ages.

Western wado ryu doesn’t quite have this solid structure, although its early strivings came about from the same collegiate beginnings as far as its sensei were concerned, its practitioners however didn’t have the national philosophical structure of group cohesion and cultural identity in its mix. Instead the usual western Magpie mentality and political chicanery came with the first esoteric mawashigeri jodan and the seed for its inevitable dilution was sewn well before any of the wado keystones of ‘principles’ were understood or in many cases even spoken of. As a result I think wado ryu became technique driven while its ethic and heart languished in a dry dojo. Every so often what is touted here is the Wado need for dojo space to absorb its essence but that doesn’t mean the mindlessness of barking gorei and drill for the thrill of command. Where Bob talks of “ reconditioning your body” as a starting point for inner power and Tim fears the ossification I am hearing a greater need to decommission the minds of western instructors if we are to achieve Takagi sensei’s wado suchness for the individual. What was always remarkable back in the day was a dojo where Suzuki sensei’s team of seven or eight Japanese wado sensei were passing through regularly who were all doing and teaching wado ryu and yet all demonstrating it differently. This for me was wado suchness.

What we have now is a western culture of wado ryu by seminar for paper sensei going to seminars and teaching what they have just heard from the flying sensei. It reminds me of the old gypsy recipe for making lamb stew which starts with: “First we steal a lamb” and not all gypsies really know how to do this… or even where to find the lamb. Some have never seen a lamb. Perhaps we first need to recognise the difference between the lamb and mutton dressed up. Wado ryu for many is something dispensed from the front of a fist or foot with its motive only based on physical ability and awards that come from the usual ego carroty driven win/lose bling of tournaments. If that is the litmus test of wado ryu then the future is assured even though the Saturday warrior tots wear kuro obi that drag the dojo floor.

If it could happen without fear, favour or rancour I think Bob’s ‘separate note’ notion advocating open seminars and the exchange of ideas and teaching methodologies might be just the place to start recognising the wado lamb and re-seasoning the recipe.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
mezusmo
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: The future of Wado ryu

Post by mezusmo »

Hi Reg


The reason i'm mentioning the 3 main organizations,(i took for granted everyone knew i was talking about Wado Kai ,WIKF and wado Ryu Renmei) is because i am lead to believe that these organizations are the best places to go to learn Authentic Wado.Would i be mistaken in this?
Martin Duffy
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Re: The future of Wado ryu

Post by Gusei21 »

mezusmo wrote:Hi Reg


The reason i'm mentioning the 3 main organizations,(i took for granted everyone knew i was talking about Wado Kai ,WIKF and wado Ryu Renmei) is because i am lead to believe that these organizations are the best places to go to learn Authentic Wado.Would i be mistaken in this?
Hi Martin,

I agree with your accessment for the most part. There are a lot of Wado organizations outside the 3 main stream that are Wado in name only. But there are always exceptions to the rule.
And there are groups that are members of the big three yet I have a hard time recognizing what they do.
Look at this board. The Kear brothers parted with the WIKF after Suzuki Sensei's passing. They are not a part of the big three yet no one can argue that they have a legitimate place at the Wado dinner table. I might be wrong but Tim Shaw is in a similar situation. I don't know the details of that so I can't elaborate. But he belongs at the table. There are a few others.

It is easy for me to say, 'trust me' and I will tell you who is legit. Of course I do say that but..lol.

There are a lot of official JKF Wadokai groups that I would not enroll my dog ...ultimately it's not the group. It is the teacher.
How do you find a good teacher? I have no idea. Let me know when you find the secret formula. It is part luck and part 'you get what you deserve'.
Bob Nash
Tim49
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Re: The future of Wado ryu

Post by Tim49 »

Gusei21 wrote:

Look at this board. The Kear brothers parted with the WIKF after Suzuki Sensei's passing. They are not a part of the big three yet no one can argue that they have a legitimate place at the Wado dinner table. I might be wrong but Tim Shaw is in a similar situation. I don't know the details of that so I can't elaborate. But he belongs at the table.
Yes, you are correct Bob, the organisation I am affiliated to is not part of the three mentioned, hasn't been for quite a few years now. http://www.shikukai.co.uk/

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK
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