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Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:19 am
by oneya
Hi Toby, the more I dwell on the old Meijin’s “There is only practice” the clearer the wado ryu landscape shows a traditional nexus with philosophical corollaries in Iaido and Kyudo intent as well as its rustic Okinawan utility.

What becomes clearer also is the notion of 'winning' at these levels is not the stuff of practice.

oneya

Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:28 pm
by Gusei21
Talking about demos in general - this is an interesting point.
What should we do? How should we do it?
Is what we do a function of the audience?
What is the goal of the demo?

A demo for the general public might be different from a demo for a sophisticated martial arts audience.

Do you send your uke flying thru the air for effect when you are in front of an unsophisticated audience even though you know that violates all martial principles of killing? (Suzuki Sensei sent people flying...)

Do you hide certain movements when you are in front of a sophisticated audience because you don't want them stealing your technique? (Oshiro Sensei intentionally makes mistakes or does moves incorrectly in front of knowledgeable martial artists).

Or do you just do the kata as it is meant to be done and potentially bore everyone in the audience to death?

A demo I do in front of the local kindergarten class is much different from a demo I do in front of a sophisticated Wado audience which is different from what I do in front of a typical martial art audience.

And then I remember Ellis Amdur telling me that after he did a public demo consisting of mostly aikido people, Tetsuzan Kuroda happened to be in the audience and Kuroda Sensei approached him afterwards with tears in his eyes thanking Ellis for doing a demo that honored the kata. Kuroda Sensei's words were 'あんたは形を大切にしてる' which means literally that 'you are treating kata as a treasure' or 'you are treating kata with utmost care'. All I know is that I want to be able to do a kata that would get that kind of reaction from a Tetsuzan Kuroda.

But I digress. A demo isn't always a kata. So I guess what you do depends on the audience if the purpose of the demo is to attempt to communicate a thought. After all what's the point of doing a demo in front of an audience and give a performance that doesn't even attempt to honestly communicate anything? You can claim you are being honest but if you make no attempt whatsoever then you may as well just masturbate in front of the audience.

Perhaps one should then do demos only in front of people who speak the same language?

Demo's are a tricky business. I try to stay clear of them personally and leave that sort of thing to the professionals. I've been told my shotokan demo is much more exciting than my Wado demo.....lol.

Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:43 am
by Tim49
I guess demos have to fit the purpose and that purpose lies with the audience. I think back to demos I’ve seen in the past and they have been largely showcase events. I’ll stick to talking about demos I’ve witnessed first hand, rather than discussing stuff on Youtube, or else I’ll be rambling all over the place. I have seen some very dramatic and athletic demos which show off the physical capabilities of the martial artists; I think of Kobayashi Sensei at Crystal Palace London on the 70s. But I have also seen some demos which were almost deliberately understated, obviously the late master Ohtsuka in 75 in London. However, although I was very inexperienced I got a feeling that this was very very different, this wasn’t a statement of athletic prowess, though I’m sure that many in the audience were just amazed that a man of advanced years could still climb into his Keikogi and perform.

I did a demo myself last weekend. It’s only when you plan it, rehearse it and polish it that you realise how much work has to happen to make it all run smoothly, and with a knife even more so. But interestingly it’s not the technique that needs the rehearsing it’s usually sequential stuff. After all, the technique is something you should have been working on for years.

Tim Shaw
Essex UK

Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:09 pm
by shep
Gusei21 wrote: I've been told my shotokan demo is much more exciting than my Wado demo.....lol.

Hi Bob, what's your Shotokan demo?

Dave

Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:07 am
by Gusei21
Speaking of demos and I know these videos are long but it is interesting for me and poses larger questions.
In fairness to JKF Wadokai, these people are from Shintani Wadokai of Canada.

First watch the demos. Yes it's hilarious. But then watch the other videos.
What do you do? What can you say? The students believe. There are people out there who come to this forum and do Wado like these people. They genuinely believe they are doing traditional REAL Wado.
There is a huge level of dishonesty being perpetuated upon them but they all seem to be very happy.

They are happy, they revere their sensei, they train hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeeXTBKqy5Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX_KTSnKhPE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofW3UrsBLcY

On a separate note, seems that Marco Nicovic has uploaded a ton of videos on youtube.
I won't list them all, you can find them yourselves. But here is one with Kono Sensei teaching.
For those of you who do not know, Marco was a student of Kono. He was the head of Wadokai for the former Yugolavia. He is the head of the WKC and is still an active member of the JKF Wadokai.
Teruo Kono was the head of Wadokai for Germany and was the number 2 senior instructor in Europe after Suzuki Sensei.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_J_MeuBB_I

Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:54 pm
by Tim49
Gusei21 wrote:Speaking of demos and I know these videos are long but it is interesting for me and poses larger questions.
In fairness to JKF Wadokai, these people are from Shintani Wadokai of Canada.

First watch the demos. Yes it's hilarious. But then watch the other videos.
What do you do? What can you say? The students believe. There are people out there who come to this forum and do Wado like these people. They genuinely believe they are doing traditional REAL Wado.
There is a huge level of dishonesty being perpetuated upon them but they all seem to be very happy.

They are happy, they revere their sensei, they train hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeeXTBKqy5Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX_KTSnKhPE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofW3UrsBLcY

On a separate note, seems that Marco Nicovic has uploaded a ton of videos on youtube.
I won't list them all, you can find them yourselves. But here is one with Kono Sensei teaching.
For those of you who do not know, Marco was a student of Kono. He was the head of Wadokai for the former Yugolavia. He is the head of the WKC and is still an active member of the JKF Wadokai.
Teruo Kono was the head of Wadokai for Germany and was the number 2 senior instructor in Europe after Suzuki Sensei.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_J_MeuBB_I
Hi Bob,
I think you've made your own point; i.e. that they are happy.
I am sure they are all getting something out of it, and in a way, finding what they do fulfilling. Maybe the Wado you are referring to is not for them; a bit like the Wado of Mr Kono is not for me, (but that's a moot point; I met him but never trained with him) but other people are happy and have built a legacy on it, fair enough.

Tim Shaw
Essex UK

Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:42 pm
by Gusei21
Hi Tim,

Yes, they are definitely happy and seem fulfilled. The only thing is that they are eating falafel and I am eating McDonalds but we both claim to be eating McDonalds.
And I think going forth there will be more and more people eating tasty fulfilling falafel but calling it McDonalds. It is an interesting phenomenon.

In this case it started with a lie. One man, Shintani, who was a scam artist but had amazing charisma managed to perpetuate crap across Canada and called it Wado. A few decades later more people are doing crap but are happy with this crap. They look at us and wonder why we call ourselves Wado when we are not doing their crap. Which is fine. I've been called worse.

But at some point it becomes a bit too Alice in Wonderlandish I think. Where is the line? Do we draw a line? Should there be a line?
Is anyone being cheated here? And if so is that ok? Or is this similar to me telling someone from another religion that their God is false?

Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:20 pm
by oneya
Well they're probably not 'fixable' and may well argue the geta is on the other foot I reckon, mainly because they don't have eyes to see. There would be too many who were taught by wandering apostates who didn't quite smooth out the joints in their lumpy fabric drawn down from other lesser gods. Some are just your regular Thetans which puts them completely beyond the pale.

There's no doubt it is all Alice in Wonderland to many and we must often sound like Humpty Dumpty to them. When I think of it 'happiness' can be as simple as a snappy sokuto fumikomi or a vibrating palm for some inmates.

oneya

Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:22 pm
by wadoka
I don't usually moderate these forums but let's keep the rest of the thread, if there is anything else to come, on topic somewhere near the title at least.

Re: Interesting demo from John Wicks sensei

Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:47 pm
by Tim49
wadoka wrote:I don't usually moderate these forums but let's keep the rest of the thread, if there is anything else to come, on topic somewhere near the title at least.
Bob brings up some interesting points; could we perhaps jump this into a new thread?

Tim Shaw
Essex UK