I am a fighter. I don’t do kata.

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Greg
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Re: I am a fighter. I don’t do kata.

Post by Greg »

Just now saw that Igor wrote this on another thread:
kyudo wrote: Wado is useless for most part. Just like a painting of Van Gogh is useless. It's even too small to use as wallpaper, so what's the point?
However, even though Wado is useless, it is still quite valuable to me. Just like a van Gogh painting.
Nice to see someone else (and I'm sure there are many others, of course) with a similar idea.
oneya
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Re: I am a fighter. I don’t do kata.

Post by oneya »

Hi Greg,

I feel quite strongly that: for this (Igor's opinion) and some other stuff along this thread, we need to go back to Tim's point here:
For the first part; opinions are like a*******s, everyone's got one.
and the vast bulk of these do not move one's recognition or comprehension of wado kata forward one jot.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

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Greg
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Re: I am a fighter. I don’t do kata.

Post by Greg »

Hi Reg,

Thanks for the response. I'm not quite sure what you mean, though. Can you clarify? Is the only purpose of voicing one's opinions about kata on a forum such as this to "move one's recognition or comprehension of wado kata forward"? Are you saying there's no point in a person sharing the (conscious) reasons why he practices kata at a particular point in his life and development as a wadoka?

Or are you referring to the idea of Wado as "useless" (in which case surely you realize that Igor and I don't literally mean that it has no uses (cf. Oscar Wilde "All art is quite useless")?)?

Forgive me if I've missed your point.

Best,
Greg
oneya
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Re: I am a fighter. I don’t do kata.

Post by oneya »

No apology necessary Greg,

What I am saying is that coming from uninformed opinion where the vast bulk of these opinions do not comprehend and so devalue the ebb and flow of tempo or point and counterpoint in the rhythms of kata (life) and its corollaries of movement, motion and the beauty of kata for its own sake do not move one's recognition or understanding of wado kata forward one jot when they decry kata.

Igor for instance, who was talking of wado rather than its kata, compares Van Gogh with the utility of wallpaper, the function of which is to paper over the cracks to hide the blemishes by illusion, which may suggest that deceit has more value than beauty in his world. His opinion could infer the same for Rembrandt or Picasso, Toscanini or Vivaldi and one might well suspect this here also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVPLIuBy9CY

oneya

edit: The spectrum of kata knowledge and comprehension being so varied it is probable that kata opinion is never about kata per se, it is more about the practitioner and his/her opinion.
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
Tim49
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Re: I am a fighter. I don’t do kata.

Post by Tim49 »

I’m just curious here; because I think I must be missing the point.
Are we saying that nobody on here has been able to extract from their kata (practice of kata) something valuable enough to utilize in their approach to fighting? Is there knowledge in kata that would be very unlikely to come directly from the practice of fighting on its own? (I know that when I say kata this could extend into practices like kihon gummite, etc.)

I looked down Greg’s list and while I acknowledge all of them, I wonder why kata as a textbook, a manual, is not included.

Take the series; Naihanchi, Seishan, Chinto; these three feed into each other beautifully and the multiple lessons learned in each establish invaluable applicable strategies. In training through these you establish the body habits necessary to turn the theory into application.

As an adjunct, I also find that certain types of fighters, those who have committed themselves to the admirable pursuit of success and have gained terrific athleticism in their chosen mode of operation (competition fighting), can develop a certain way of moving which is idiosyncratic to them, or should I say to their chosen mode? And that in some cases this way of moving is so ingrained that it gets in the way of them accessing the upper strata of Wado.

Tim Shaw
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oneya
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Re: I am a fighter. I don’t do kata.

Post by oneya »

Hi Tim,
When you say
I looked down Greg’s list and while I acknowledge all of them, I wonder why kata as a textbook, a manual, is not included.
While I found myself wondering why we are 26 posts into this thread before any specific kata or their properties are named. I seems to me that even if we only talk about the Okinawan legacy as opposed to the koryu gyo legacy there is enough of a trail to speculate or comment on in the Pinan series before we even get to the Naihanchi branch line and a whole other rationale.

Another (the sixth consecutive) day of 30 plus degrees today here in my corner of Oz saw me drop in for a tonsorial touch up in the air conditioned barber's stall where I'd sat reading an old issue of something called Martial Arts IIlustrated from the UK. After the usual 30 minutes waiting period I sat wondering why there wasn't a mention of any kata of any stripe in that colourful montage of muscles and grimace that left me slightly puzzled. This morphed into a slight depression when the editor ( while claiming wado ryu heritage) was able to rationalise - to an irate contributor - the minimal space given to Suzuki sensei's passing while a high profile dojo developer was afforded a 3 page spread. Nothing wrong with shiai promotional copy that I can see but the absence of even a scrap of a this vital intrinsic training aspect of kata was depressing.

Good haircut though..

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
mezusmo
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Re: I am a fighter. I don’t do kata.

Post by mezusmo »

Didn't the Okinawan's in the past practice kata alone to build fighting technique's?I know wado kata is not Okinawan kata but (and i feel personally its a big but) kata should teach valuable lessons in fighting.kata is full of fighting techniques and strategy.i feel we should have a noble pursuit or purpose in our training but we cant deny we should be learning to fight,kata included.
Martin Duffy
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Re: I am a fighter. I don’t do kata.

Post by wadoka »

Tim49 wrote:I’m just curious here; because I think I must be missing the point.
Are we saying that nobody on here has been able to extract from their kata (practice of kata) something valuable enough to utilize in their approach to fighting? Is there knowledge in kata that would be very unlikely to come directly from the practice of fighting on its own? (I know that when I say kata this could extend into practices like kihon gummite, etc.)
Feels odd to quote myself -
wadoka wrote:I can see the attractiveness of giving kata the aura of a knowledge onion, with many layers to peel and reveal but over time I see no justification required to explain it. It just becomes one of the just-do elements.
What I meant by that, although not properly expressed at all, was that after a while everything is a constant reminder for everything else, and by doing everything else, we are constantly reminded about "attack" and "defence", with fighting in mind. We all just do it and get on with it.
Tim49
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Re: I am a fighter. I don’t do kata.

Post by Tim49 »

I like that Gordon, because it expresses the idea of joined up Wado. It is all one.
Bravo.

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK
AshleyBarai
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Re: I am a fighter. I don’t do kata.

Post by AshleyBarai »

What I meant by that, although not properly expressed at all, was that after a while everything is a constant reminder for everything else, and by doing everything else, we are constantly reminded about "attack" and "defence", with fighting in mind. We all just do it and get on with it.
I had to read this several times to understand it.

I guess that is kind of the point of what you are saying.
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