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Wimm Massee Demo

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:49 pm
by shep
Nice on demo of kihon Gumite and tanto dori by Wimm Massee from Spain in 1990 I believe he is now on the Technical Committee of WIKF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orYNx9n ... ature=plcp

shep

Re: Wimm Massee Demo

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:08 am
by laurie
Hi,
I don't recognise the additional 'take downs' in the kihon kumite (e.g. I've never seen KK#1 end up on the ground in an arm bar before) - is this standard practise in the WIKF these days? Also, the behind the head arm bar seems a little unusual. I'm just a lowly 1st kyu, so please only take my opinion for what it's worth, but I can't help feeling that some of this demonstration has been "ju-jitsu'd-up" for the sake of the audience - does anyone have any insight into how such additions may add or detract from the practise of kihon kumite? Are we to assume that these additions are from the SYR ju-jitsu heritage/principles of wado ryu that these kata are derived?

Re: Wimm Massee Demo

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:37 am
by shep
Hi laurie

It is what it is, a demo for the enjoyment of the audience by an obviously very talented wadoka. It's not suppose to be demonstrating a WIKF syllabus. There are many add-ons and variations to techniques, never more so than during a demo. But if its not your bag than fine.

Shep

Re: Wimm Massee Demo

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:50 am
by wadopaul
It has been ju-jitsud up for a demo, which is fair enough in my book. AS for being SYR techniques, I couldn't say.

Re: Wimm Massee Demo

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:25 am
by kato
Wim Massee was a high level judo competitor in the 1960s. He also has a strong background in jiu jitsu.
He is an excellent karate instructor and a very nice man.

His story and some old karate pictures:
"My history starts in 1966 when sensei Teruo Kono arrived in the Netherlands. Then, I was a Judo competitor and therefore I had to divide my training time between both Martial Arts":
http://www.albergue-paradiso.com/budo_links.htm

Re: Wimm Massee Demo

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:06 pm
by Gusei21
I have heard only good things about Wim Masse. I love this demo.
One of the best Wado demos I've seen.

Re: Wimm Massee Demo

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:52 pm
by Greg
Very nice nage and kansetsu waza.
laurie wrote:Hi,
I don't recognise the additional 'take downs' in the kihon kumite (e.g. I've never seen KK#1 end up on the ground in an arm bar before) - is this standard practise in the WIKF these days? Also, the behind the head arm bar seems a little unusual. I'm just a lowly 1st kyu, so please only take my opinion for what it's worth, but I can't help feeling that some of this demonstration has been "ju-jitsu'd-up" for the sake of the audience - does anyone have any insight into how such additions may add or detract from the practise of kihon kumite? Are we to assume that these additions are from the SYR ju-jitsu heritage/principles of wado ryu that these kata are derived?
Laurie,

These are good questions. I hope I can offer some small insight as I've been thinking about this a lot lately. If you don't already do so, it's helpful to think about the Kihon Kumite as 2-person kata, which is the primary way that jujitsu/judo has been taught through the ages. Ohtsuka Sensei wrote in his book that we must not get "stuck" in the kata--that we must be able to step back from them and create infinite forms and variations (I'm paraphrasing as I don't have the book or the quote handy). He was talking about the solo kata, but it applies to all 2-person kata as well (Kihon Kumite, Kumite Kata, Tanto-Dori, Sanbon Kumite, etc.). With Kihon Kumite #5 and #10, which Mr. Massee performs in the demo, Ohtsuka Sensei gave us a way of thinking about what comes "after" the initial movements. With the others, he didn't. Nothing needs to necessarily come after the standard forms of these kata, but each puts you in a position to perform any number of techniques. They all put Uke (the "attacker") in a much-compromised position (Kuzushi) that can then be exploited for throws, sweeps, joint-locks or cranks, or just a whole lot of straightforward punishment by kicking, punching, striking. I teach writing during the day, so here's one way I like to think of it: Ohtsuka Sensei gave us 10 sentences with the Kihon Kumite, each of them with a "fill-in-the-blank" part at the end. With #5 and #10, he gave us a couple of examples of how he might "fill-in-the-blanks." With the others, he's asking us to come up with our own solutions. In Koryu (old school) Jujitsu (such as SYR), they call this Okuden or Ura-Waza (hidden technique). I admire Mr. Massee for going beyond the usual confines of a Wado demonstration and showing us some of his "solutions."

I hope that's helpful, and I'd be very curious about how others on the forum think about this issue.

Best wishes to all,
Greg

Re: Wimm Massee Demo

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:15 pm
by Gary
Very good embu.

I wouldn't have liked to be Uke on that hard floor though... ouch!

I see no problem with this sort of demo. This guy is clearly an experienced budo-ka who knows how to connect the dots, and that's the great thing about Wado.

I like your analogy Greg, when teaching - I often refer to them as “phrases”.

Gary

Re: Wimm Massee Demo

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:45 am
by oneya
Hi Laurie,
I can't help feeling that some of this demonstration has been "ju-jitsu'd-up" for the sake of the audience
Surely it is only the audience that is relevant in the case of a demonstration of wado ryu. The fact that this particular demonstration includes ten kihon kumite as the framework for the demo should perhaps only be seen as a matter of convenience for both torimi and ukemi. If we are going to suspend belief by accepting the complicity factor then perhaps we can also cede the primary function of kata in that suspension as Mr Massee also does very well in his comparison of National art forms using Wado ryu seishan kata and Spanish Flamenco dance here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... FJjMZSQZZg

regards

oneya