Emergence of Wado tachi dori, tanto dori & idori from SYR

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Tim49
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:38 pm
Location: Essex UK
Contact:

Post by Tim49 »

TSYR wrote:Hello,

A question to ponder. If Ohtsuka taught idori why would he discard the SYR jujutsu principles that were the foundation of their execution? He obviously admired these principles as he inserted them extensively into his expression of karate. There are several possibilities:

1) Ohtsuka taught the SYR idori exactly as he learned them and his students missed the importance of the underlying principles.

2) Ohtsuka taught the SYR idori but changed them by eliminating the SYR jujutsu principles in favor of ones more dependent on strength and leverage.

3) Ohtsuka taught the SYR Idori exactly as he learned them but his students chose to change the underlying principles to reflect their own preferred methods and understanding.

4) Ohtsuka only taught the outward shell of the SYR idori, and never got around to teaching the underlying principles. His students simply filled in the blanks with what they understood.

5) Ohtsuka never really taught the SYR idori, but only demonstrated them, and later his students tried to imitate what they observed him doing.

One thing is certain, the Wado ryu idori, as demonstrated by Ohtsuka's top students are not executed in away that reflects familiarity with the principles employed in the SYR idori. There might still be people alive out there who know the answer to this question. Has anyone asked a guy like Toru Arakawa? If its really important, it's up to you guys in Wado ryu to figure that little mystery out. I'll see Shingo Ohgami in October and ask him, but I think I already know his answer.
I go for 1 and 3, with an option on 4 and 5 depending who we are talking about.

One size does not fit all.

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK
yabumi
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:38 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post by yabumi »

but you ain't ever gonna really know... are you?

What has been passed on, by various students of Ohtsuka's method, has been enough to occupy us for the last 30 or 40 or 50 years and it still seems to excite us. So why worry? The people who taught us had the same difficulties as we do. They worked with what they were taught and tried to understand it. The principles are still there and they are as difficult as ever to master, so why not just enjoy the study?

Sure, you can look outside of Wado to it's roots in SYR but all you will find is that SYR is different to Wado.
oneya
Posts: 857
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Mornington Victoria Australia

Post by oneya »

Hi Tobin,

All generalisations are false of course but these are interesting all the same. Tim has a nice balanced approach that shows his ability to knit smoke while leaving no footprints in the sandpit and I could easily follow this elegant lead but once we enter this ‘general’ world we become as politicians in that we tend to tilt and spin the falsehood to achieve an outcome that, while vaguely satisfying, may not hold a skerrick of truth in its fabric and we’re all seekers of truth right?

Without some clarification of the differences that only koryu eyes are capable of seeing some might argue that it is not inconceivable for a man capable of devising wado ryu kihon kumite for his inspirational work might well also have considered a new set of idori that reflected a more meathead ‘karate’ approach for his new art of the future, to help them sleep better at night.

Some may argue, as I do and as Rob is also saying, that the road is long and viewing sites along it route will vary according to the seasons of a man’s travel and so we should enjoy the variances in the journey because it is the only one we have inherited. To that I can only add that any and all variances in my view are entirely mine and I continue to own sole responsibility for them.

Obviously in making this statement you have considered one truth that some will lay at your door in that: you personally cannot possibly have met or watched ‘all wado ryu students’ at their idori play so we need to narrow the field down a bit as to which top students you are referring to and – given your conviction and not without some note for your courage in your lion’s den statement - can you add a little meat to the bones and explain the missing SYR principles from wado idori

thanks for the chaw,

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Post by Gusei21 »

We need to remember one thing that perhaps the non Japanese do not understand.

Idori was never done except by Suzuki Sensei. When we were all one family the only one who did idori was Suzuki.
He taught Kono and his other Japanese boys in Europe.
Idori was rarely done in Japan proper.
To this day outside of Hakoishi Sensei who is sort of an anomaly, no one in the Wadokai does it.
I have never seen Arakawa Sensei do it. I was shocked when Takagi Sensei did it in front of my eyes in Berlin about 10 years ago. I had no clue he knew it.
Only after the split and only after some time had past did Wadoryu begin to do it.

So the reality is that when we speak of Wadoryu idori, Suzuki Sensei did it publicly longer than anyone else in Wadoland.
Somehow there is this myth that idori and tanto was done prominently in Japan. No. Not at all.
And even today in the Wadokai Takagi Sensei has said to me numerous times that tanto and idori we leave to the Wadoryu folks. We in the Wadokai do karate.
(Except Hakoishi Sensei who can do whatever he wants.)

And if you look at the Wadoryu people doing idori then I prefer Suzuki Sensei hands down.
And my point is that Suzuki Sensei is not using high level jujitsu. More like green belt jujitsu to do idori.

So...for me this is sort of the Emperor has no clothes type scenario.

We in Wado got something when it comes to idori. But it won't buy you much at the local martial arts store. But it is better than what passes for idori compared to the other karate groups. Suzuki Sensei was amazing and left a wonderful legacy of Wado. His kata, his ohyo kumite, his kihon kumite were brilliant. But the idori....it is lightweight. And perhaps that is why the JKF Wadokai quietly tried to purge it from its program because someone knows that we don't have a way of teaching this stuff. And thus we say if you want to learn it then got see the Wadoryu people. They are the ones claiming to do jujitsu, not us.
Bob Nash
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Post by Gusei21 »

I should add:

There are many people in the Wadokai that do want to learn tanto and idori. They seek out Hakoishi Sensei since he is the only 'authority' on that subject in the Wadokai.
The bit where I said in Wadokai we do karate and we leave jujitsu to the Wadoryu people - I did not say that. I am quoting JKF Wadokai 8th dan people.
Bob Nash
Gusei21
Posts: 403
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 am

Post by Gusei21 »

I apologize for beating this to death but I reread what I wrote and it just doesn't sound right.
We have non native English speakers here not to mention the fact that my comments/sarcasm might be misconstrued so I will take a final crack at this.

1) Wadoryu (the style) is amazing and brilliant. It is the richest of all karate styles that I have personally experienced and I have spent many years trying to get a handle on this.
The better I get the less I understand and the more I realize I suck at it.
2) Suzuki Sensei is one of the greatest Wadoka that ever lived. His dedication and commitment to Wado is second to none. His speed, timing, power - amazing.
He was one of the best Wadoka who ever lived.

The End.

As for Wado ryu's idori and tanto tori. In my opinion it blows. It is no good. It does not matter who is doing it. It has nothing to do with Suzuki Sensei.
It has nothing to do with the person doing it.
Why do I say this? Because I experienced Shindo Yoshin ryu and after having experienced it I went back and studied Otsuka Sensei doing it and guess what...I saw the stuff.
He had it. He was doing it. The more I learned Shindo Yoshin ryu the better I was able to see the true genius of Otsuka Sensei. It was then that I decided never to teach Wado idori or tanto tori. I felt it was a fraud. I pride myself in being a martial artist. I try to be honest to the art. I do not fake it. I honor the kata. I honor the technique.
And I could not with a straight face teach tanto tori or idori after experiencing Shindo Yoshin Ryu. I then decided that if my people wanted to learn it then I would just bring Toby Threadgill in and have him teach it. I have no desire to play at idori or play at tanto tori because at the end of the day I want to do what Otsuka Sensei was doing.
I see Otsuka Sensei connecting. I see him moving in one. I see the unified body. I see ten chi jin. I see him using ju to overcome his opponent. And for me, Shindo Yoshin Ryu is the means to access what Otsuka Sensei was doing in his tanto (never seen his idori).

JKF Wadokai solved this problem in a simple manner. They just took it off the books. Many people are not happy about it but that is what happened because some wise man decided that it was pointless. In fact someone had told the Wadokai that I was teaching idori and tango tori (not true) and I was told straight out by the Wadokai that if I continued to do so then I should resign from the Wadokai and go join Wadoryu because that was their thing. The Technical committee told me this. (I am not that deluded to think that Wadoryu would ever have the likes of me in a million years.).
My retort was that this information was a lie. I do not teach it. And if I did it would be TSYR and I am not allowed to do that because then Toby Threadgill would expel me from TSYR. I might use a tanto or katana or bokken to explain principles but I never teach the kata. And in my opinion the Wado tanto kata is pretty much the TSYR tanto kata.

So there you have it. I am not making fun of the person doing it. I am saying that doing it is pointless because we are doing it wrong and there is no one in our playground to teach it correctly. Again, my opinion. But I think my opinion carries a lot of merit because I have learned how to see even if my vision is far from being complete. And so did Gary.

So again, no one is commenting on the skill of Mr Wicks or Sensei Suzuki or anyone else. It's the Wado tanto/idori kata that bothers me.
Bob Nash
Tim49
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:38 pm
Location: Essex UK
Contact:

Post by Tim49 »

Gusei21 wrote:I apologize for beating this to death but I reread what I wrote and it just doesn't sound right.
We have non native English speakers here not to mention the fact that my comments/sarcasm might be misconstrued so I will take a final crack at this.

1) Wadoryu (the style) is amazing and brilliant. It is the richest of all karate styles that I have personally experienced and I have spent many years trying to get a handle on this.
The better I get the less I understand and the more I realize I suck at it.
2) Suzuki Sensei is one of the greatest Wadoka that ever lived. His dedication and commitment to Wado is second to none. His speed, timing, power - amazing.
He was one of the best Wadoka who ever lived.

The End.

As for Wado ryu's idori and tanto tori. In my opinion it blows. It is no good. It does not matter who is doing it. It has nothing to do with Suzuki Sensei.
It has nothing to do with the person doing it.
Why do I say this? Because I experienced Shindo Yoshin ryu and after having experienced it I went back and studied Otsuka Sensei doing it and guess what...I saw the stuff.
He had it. He was doing it. The more I learned Shindo Yoshin ryu the better I was able to see the true genius of Otsuka Sensei. It was then that I decided never to teach Wado idori or tanto tori. I felt it was a fraud. I pride myself in being a martial artist. I try to be honest to the art. I do not fake it. I honor the kata. I honor the technique.
And I could not with a straight face teach tanto tori or idori after experiencing Shindo Yoshin Ryu. I then decided that if my people wanted to learn it then I would just bring Toby Threadgill in and have him teach it. I have no desire to play at idori or play at tanto tori because at the end of the day I want to do what Otsuka Sensei was doing.
I see Otsuka Sensei connecting. I see him moving in one. I see the unified body. I see ten chi jin. I see him using ju to overcome his opponent. And for me, Shindo Yoshin Ryu is the means to access what Otsuka Sensei was doing in his tanto (never seen his idori).

JKF Wadokai solved this problem in a simple manner. They just took it off the books. Many people are not happy about it but that is what happened because some wise man decided that it was pointless. In fact someone had told the Wadokai that I was teaching idori and tango tori (not true) and I was told straight out by the Wadokai that if I continued to do so then I should resign from the Wadokai and go join Wadoryu because that was their thing. The Technical committee told me this. (I am not that deluded to think that Wadoryu would ever have the likes of me in a million years.).
My retort was that this information was a lie. I do not teach it. And if I did it would be TSYR and I am not allowed to do that because then Toby Threadgill would expel me from TSYR. I might use a tanto or katana or bokken to explain principles but I never teach the kata. And in my opinion the Wado tanto kata is pretty much the TSYR tanto kata.

So there you have it. I am not making fun of the person doing it. I am saying that doing it is pointless because we are doing it wrong and there is no one in our playground to teach it correctly. Again, my opinion. But I think my opinion carries a lot of merit because I have learned how to see even if my vision is far from being complete. And so did Gary.

So again, no one is commenting on the skill of Mr Wicks or Sensei Suzuki or anyone else. It's the Wado tanto/idori kata that bothers me.
Ah well, there we have it……

suicide pact anyone?

I intend to fall on my own Tanto tonight.

Tim Shaw
Essex
Aslan
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:41 am
Contact:

Post by Aslan »

Very interesting thoughts, Bob.
But I take it a little easier. Maybe because I'm not 8 dan?)))
I take tantodori and idori as advanced KIHON KUMITE. Limitations caused by the seiza or tanto in your opponent's hand are forcing more work on wado body movement, maai and concentration. Not paying attention to the one who introduced idori or tantodori, Otsuka and Suzuki.
It is my humble opinion.
Aslan Datiev
TSYR
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:02 pm
Location: Evergreen, Colorado USA

Post by TSYR »

oneya wrote:Hi Tobin,

All generalisations are false of course but these are interesting all the same. Tim has a nice balanced approach that shows his ability to knit smoke while leaving no footprints in the sandpit and I could easily follow this elegant lead but once we enter this ‘general’ world we become as politicians in that we tend to tilt and spin the falsehood to achieve an outcome that, while vaguely satisfying, may not hold a skerrick of truth in its fabric and we’re all seekers of truth right?

Without some clarification of the differences that only koryu eyes are capable of seeing some might argue that it is not inconceivable for a man capable of devising wado ryu kihon kumite for his inspirational work might well also have considered a new set of idori that reflected a more meathead ‘karate’ approach for his new art of the future, to help them sleep better at night.

Some may argue, as I do and as Rob is also saying, that the road is long and viewing sites along it route will vary according to the seasons of a man’s travel and so we should enjoy the variances in the journey because it is the only one we have inherited. To that I can only add that any and all variances in my view are entirely mine and I continue to own sole responsibility for them.

Obviously in making this statement you have considered one truth that some will lay at your door in that: you personally cannot possibly have met or watched ‘all wado ryu students’ at their idori play so we need to narrow the field down a bit as to which top students you are referring to and – given your conviction and not without some note for your courage in your lion’s den statement - can you add a little meat to the bones and explain the missing SYR principles from wado idori

thanks for the chaw,

oneya

Hi Reg,

I thought I just posed some historical questions for Wado ryu people to ponder... Silly me.

As for Ohtsuka creating a new set of idori reflecting a more "meathead" karate approach, I’m not sure informed people would buy it. That conclusion doesn’t make rational sense. Why would Ohtsuka include something as "old school" as idori kata and then purposely neuter them of their principles? The sophistication of the kumitegata and kihon kumite reflect significant influence from SYR principles? If, as many propose, Ohtsuka’s purpose for including the SYR teaching forms into his Wado ryu was to "japanify" his newly birthed budo, wouldn't it be logical for him to have left the original principles intact to further convince those stodgy men in the Butokukai of his new arts koryu heritage? I personally think something else happened but any speculation is rather futile unless a guy like Toru Arakawa drops a bomb. Regardless, the mystery is no big deal to me beyond the fact that I get asked about it all the time at seminars. I never know how to answer..

As for clarification surrounding the individual principles involved, it would take my writing a novel to explain them without hands on feedback to convey the nuances involved. I have students in TSYR from all three lines of Wado ryu. Guys like Bob Nash, Robbie Smith, Shingo Ohgami, and others can confirm that what I was taught as the SYR idori/tantodori, and what they were taught as Wado idori/tantodori bear little similarity under the surface. Even if the outward form were exactly the same, subtle effects on the uchite's structure reveal to the trained eye higher level SYR dynamics at work. As far as I’m aware, the principles of ten,chi, jin, anteho/fuanteho, zenshin, ju no musubi, go no musubi, and others are not comprehensively employed in the Wado idori/tantodori. Could I be wrong and someone somewhere is applying these principles like we do in SYR? Sure, but I haven’t exactly been hanging with a bunch of Wado ryu slackers for the last 12-15 years, consequently I have a pretty informed idea of what constitutes orthodoxy in relation to their execution in all three Wado branches.

For the record, I’m not critical of the Wado idori, tantodori or shinkendori. They are what they are and serve a different purpose in Wado than they do in SYR. As I stated earlier in relation to the shinkendori, the Wado and SYR kata are simply apples and oranges in my mind. To paraphrase Rob Kear, all the Wado paired kata are part of the greater Wado landscape, and if you are happy with that landscape, why not enjoy the show? I agree completely.

The mystery of why the idori and tantodori evolved the way they did remains, but in the end most people studying Wado probably don’t care about the historical or technical nuances involved in this story. They're busy learning what the Wado ryu paired forms have to teach. That’s great. If people do care to delve more deeply into the origins of their Wado ryu idori and tanto dori, there is a venue for historical/technical comparison, and that’s fine by me too. I like hanging with Wado ryu people.

Shindo Yoshin ryu and Wado ryu are not twins, but they are family.

Regards,
Tobin E Threadgill
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai
http://www.shinyokai.com
oneya
Posts: 857
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Mornington Victoria Australia

Re: Emergence of Wado tachi dori, tanto dori & idori from SY

Post by oneya »

Hi Tobin,

Sorry if I appeared to miss the historical link, perhaps I am getting old and feeling closer to history than is comfortable in the mornings.

There is no doubt in my mind that the two versions of Tanto and Idori are different but for anyone to point this out without some indication of Wado’s missing links is to invite a raised zenshin eyebrow on occasion, but let me try to pour a little oil on the waters by saying there is not a day goes by that I don’t lament the languages difficulties in the early wado years of its global diaspora even as I enjoy its constant rewards.

In those days Shiai was wado, items like tanto and idori were only demonstration pieces and exclusively Japanese sensei territory so any inner workings or ura dynamics were well beyond our ken. It wasn’t all bad though because what you don’t have you generally don’t miss and the lure of shiai tinsel was the carrot that was being waved continuously. In looking back at its origins, it was difficult to go beyond our resident Japanese sensei so the depth of Ohtsuka meijin’s koryu contribution was not really an issue.

Fast forward twenty years and digesting a few major eruptions and shattered linkages in our ‘way of harmony’ saw items like tanto dori introduced into the diet with enough shape to be alluring particularly when there was no comparative form to refer to. Fast forward another twenty five or so years and dojo knees are the only problem we see with Idori – Rob reminded me that we have only ever seen Ohtsuka meijin on his knees once in our wado life -- and so it goes.

In looking at your TYSR list of principle I find myself nodding as I note that zenshin and ten chi jin get their head up in SNY wado and – if I have the kanji right - I think we may understand ju no musubi and go no musubi under other names but would need to share a dojo with you to confirm this. On the other hand I am not familiar with the anteho/fuanteho labels so you could well be right in saying SYR Principles: “ are not comprehensively employed in the Wado idori/tantodori” and so the mystery remains.

There could well be many reasons for this of course: One wonders if it was just the passing of the seasons and not enough time, or perhaps the intent was to defang wado like Kano’s Judo for its sporting benefits or whether it was seen as just too difficult for the gaijin to comprehend, perhaps even unnecessary in the light of Shiai success in the western world as being a major plank in Ohtsuka meijin’s philosophy of peace. We shall never know so I do not lament for too long because whatever the reason there is some salve that is particularly beneficial in the knowledge that for present day practitioners of wado ryu there is an avenue for retracing some footprints should they seek more than just its historical roots.

Regards
oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
Locked