Wado Myths

[Tim49]

I have seen people on other forums tie themselves in knots trying to discuss the physics of a karate punching action. I can’t see the point of looking at it in that way (Shotokan guys like this way of thinking).

Honestly how do people think punching is applied in Wado?

There has to be intelligent alignment of the skeletal structure so that when it collides with a solid object the energy is not nullified or dispersed, also to avoid injuring your self. But crucially there are timing and triggering issue as well. This is actually more important than any static positioning or final point of arrival position; i.e. the position you end up in. Sadly it is this final position that too many people make judgements about. They judge junzuki as a point, and instead should be judging it as a process.

So this thing about your shoulders ‘ending up’ square to me makes no sense.

There also seems to be an assumption that we have to turn our fists and feet into the human equivalent of Inter Continental Ballistic Missiles, this is lazy thinking for what is supposed to be a multi-dimensional thinking-mans martial art. Leave that to the Kyokushinkai people. Of course I’m not saying that we should be de-emphasising the issue of generating energy to point where we become light and fluffy, I’m saying we should be deploying our energy intelligently.

Tim

[WadoAJ]

I have seen people on other forums tie themselves in knots trying to discuss the physics of a karate punching action. I can’t see the point of looking at it in that way (Shotokan guys like this way of thinking).

Honestly how do people think punching is applied in Wado?

There has to be intelligent alignment of the skeletal structure so that when it collides with a solid object the energy is not nullified or dispersed, also to avoid injuring your self. But crucially there are timing and triggering issue as well. This is actually more important than any static positioning or final point of arrival position; i.e. the position you end up in. Sadly it is this final position that too many people make judgements about. They judge junzuki as a point, and instead should be judging it as a process.

So this thing about your shoulders ‘ending up’ square to me makes no sense.

There also seems to be an assumption that we have to turn our fists and feet into the human equivalent of Inter Continental Ballistic Missiles, this is lazy thinking for what is supposed to be a multi-dimensional thinking-mans martial art. Leave that to the Kyokushinkai people. Of course I’m not saying that we should be de-emphasising the issue of generating energy to point where we become light and fluffy, I’m saying we should be deploying our energy intelligently.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Indeed it is a process. I think the question raised is originally coming from the idea of what is more proper to end up in after the process. I mentioned "just natural" on purpose, as in my opinion the 'end up in' of junzuki is a logic natural cause of the process. I can imagine though that people would like some kind of 'grip' on what to do or what not. lIke junzuki dachi with a strechted front leg? I guess it is a question about a basic rule or something like that. I have tried to mention some elements that are part of the same act. And then there is the initial and ukemi before and during the actual strike. Which are also part of the process.

I guess you are trying to say that the process is more important than the point in time at the end of the process?

AJ

[claas]

Hi Tim,

Even though I partially share your opinion about the difficulties of analysation, I think as just an approach it still can have value. The problem is when people start analysing the wrong things or do some mistakes in their analysis. Then they push themselves more to the direction of not getting it than to that of getting it. No one should ever start believing any outcome of such analysis completely, but be open-minded for improvements or completely new thoughts instead. Unfortunately for many people this is impossible, since they want to know something.

What I wrote was not specifically about junzuki but just analysing one small thing about generally having the shoulders square or at an angle. The point in that analysis was not to help people find "the right way" but rather to encourage to simply believe the instructor, because there could be a reason for the way the teaching goes. What I basically said was both an angle and square have good sides, which I think make it a good idea to trust the instructor. I also like this natural-thing that AJ wrote about because it allows one to feel these things.

And one more time... I wasn't talking about junzuki.

[WadoAJ]

hi Claas,

I must not have been reading carefully.. if it was not on junzuki, then what exactly was it, just tachikata?

AJ

[claas]

Hi AJ,

At first I wasn't sure what it was about in this thread, from reading just the first posting. Not too sure now either, after repeating what has been written. In the case that we all might be talking about different things or from a different point of view, I thought it would be a good thing to tell that my p.o.v. was punches in general, not just junzuki. Of course it's possible then that it had nothing to do with the myth itself.

I have to admit that I don't understand what the myth here really is meant to be here... About kamae, tachikata, a punch or perhaps some interplay between some of these? Maybe karateman7 will help us out a little?


(My first thought was that it had something to do with kamae, since in some shools of MA they encourage to not have either side in front. Then later my thought changed more to punching in general after reading about weight-transfer.)

[oneya]

I have seen people on other forums tie themselves in knots trying to discuss the physics of a karate punching action. I can’t see the point of looking at it in that way (Shotokan guys like this way of thinking).

Honestly how do people think punching is applied in Wado?

There has to be intelligent alignment of the skeletal structure so that when it collides with a solid object the energy is not nullified or dispersed, also to avoid injuring your self. But crucially there are timing and triggering issue as well. This is actually more important than any static positioning or final point of arrival position; i.e. the position you end up in. Sadly it is this final position that too many people make judgements about. They judge junzuki as a point, and instead should be judging it as a process.

So this thing about your shoulders ‘ending up’ square to me makes no sense.

There also seems to be an assumption that we have to turn our fists and feet into the human equivalent of Inter Continental Ballistic Missiles, this is lazy thinking for what is supposed to be a multi-dimensional thinking-mans martial art. Leave that to the Kyokushinkai people. Of course I’m not saying that we should be de-emphasising the issue of generating energy to point where we become light and fluffy, I’m saying we should be deploying our energy intelligently.

Tim

Ah Tim,

It’s that myth and magic time again when we hear as many fanciful assumptions made about karate as such, and these go on to herald the tangled presuppositions which seem to multiply like rabbits when we move from karate in general into the more specific world of wado ryu. This resonates with me when I see collar and tied folk judging something as subjective and at times as barren as wado kata analysis and jangles even more with the pejorative macho utterings of the self saucing mixed martial artist's opinions of the doubtful value of 'junzuki' punching in thin air. This strikes me as being about as foolish as hearing a dilettante dance critic remarking negatively on a classical dancer’s warm up procedure but who doesn’t stay for the entire performance - or perhaps one of them suburban newspaper's theatre critic lighting a lemon scented funeral pyre when having just watched some very early rehearsal of ‘A Tramcar named Detox’ in Manchester.

I would have thought, and more than often hoped, by now after almost half a century of western logic coating the eastern pie that the Occidental students and teachers of wado ryu might have evolved beyond wado shoulders fixed in any particular position or angle when practicing or am I wrong when Seishan kata comes to mind. ?

One of the more ludicrous flaws in judgments made when looking at the Wado ryu process is the presupposition that, the end is nigh and pretty much ‘in sight’ for the many western 3rd dan onanist practitioners and observers both, when Ohtsuka Meijin himself is reputed to have said: ‘There are no secrets, there is only practice’, An observation, which at one time I thought was a gently teasing argument extending beyond the wado pale to the Cartesian ‘cogito ergo sum ?’ but I have since revised this when I realised there is very little that is actually beyond the wado ryu pale since its principles are universal. That it is a process is a truism - but a process of what? If it is a process of learning then how will we know or recognise the learned ones when what seems illogical to my mind is that - while eyes are naturally turned to the west when observing tangled thoughts of iconic squared shoulders and the jutty jaw of the costumed super hero - Yet some eminent observers with a stream of wado cred like our very own Ben of Manchester may still hold the notion that any western chronicle such as the ‘Email Wado Newsletter’ may furnish the same directional but tangled promotional values and yet meet the needs of western wado ryu practitioners now. I would think Wado ryu, Kai, Kokusai is, after all, an eastern art where Shu Ha Ri is barely understood except for the few who know wado has many miles to go before its 'use by date' whilst the D.I.Y. vagaries of the west is extremely creative in the matters of myth and misinformation when finessing the disappearance of cultures while at the same time retaining the appearance of wisdom for the benefit of the market place but not – unfortunately or necessarily - for the ethic.

Ah, twas ever thus. I may just quit hollering at the moon and take a little sip now.

oneya

[Tim49]

Some interesting replies to a thread about Myths. I was about to cry ‘topic drift’ then after a more careful reading realised that recent postings were actually on the nail. It seemed inevitable with a theme like this that it would ramble around a bit.

To Claas,
Right, I think I get what you are saying now. Both AJ and myself returned to default by zeroing in on what to us is one of the foundational embodiments of Wado (Junzuki). Then I thought you were talking about and attitude or stance adopted in the middle of action, but that also is wrong because it doesn’t fit with what you originally said, because you were talking about actual punching. At one point in rotation your body will be square, or more like it will pass through the square point, but I can’t see why that point over other points needs to have any more emphasis. It’s probably better to talk about which points will have least effect – like when the movement terminates.

Damn, I’ve just found myself drawn in to one of those Physics type of discussions I dislike so much; ah well.

Oneya,
You are right. It’s a double edged sword by being oh so very particular in trying to get things ‘right’ it looks like we are getting sucked into detail and becoming boorish pedants; while at the same time we are imploring students to see the ‘whole’ and just get on with training and not get obsessive about specifics. Contradictions eh.

Tim

[go rin no sho]

‘There are no secrets, there is only practice’

i like this approach

grns

[oneya]

As in all cultures and subcultures, there are myths. I remember from the previous forums there was discussion on the teachings that were misinterpreted and passed down on the line (language?).

I thought it'd be interesting to list and talk about these. It's such a shame for people who are totally invested in learning an art and are stuck with a teach who, for any reason, adopted these "myths."

Two that come to mind are 1) in kata, you must start and end at the same place 2) one strike one kill (I think I heard this was mistranslated?)

I may be wrong (and I probably am) but it seems a lot of holes in understanding were filled with generic karate principles.

One that I'm unsure about is the keeping the body squared, which is seen a lot in shotokan. Whenever I saw Otskua II or Otsuka III, their bodies are 45 degrees.

Hi karateman7,

I guess I should have just answered the question and kept it simple but generic karate information given out by instructors thinking it applies to wado ryu will shuffle my cards. So just a (sober) word about the squared versus angled shoulders in wado ryu.

In my opinion, Funakoshi Gichin, having an Azato-Itosu lineage, the subsequent Shoto version of squared shoulders is not Gichin Funakoshi typical of the times but more likely a significant change to the style by Gigo Funakoshi his son and heir to Shotokan. Ohtsuka meijin's early karate experiences were intially Funakosi Gichin and later and perhaps more significantly Choki Motobu and Kenwa Mabuni who were all very much part of the wado ryu template but perhaps not so significant as his Shindo Yoshin ryu years which can be seen in all aspects of his wado ryu training.

Simple biology and a study of anatomy will show the weaknesses and strengths of any particular posture and all wado ryu postures are significantly shaped (angled?) in training to achieve maximum strengths through optimal physical alignment and governed weight displacement, this is essential 'throughout' the necessary movement. Initial stages of training will often incorporate angles in terms of degrees as mnemonics for students but height, weight and body type will also be considered to shape a student to his full potential.

oneya

[blackcat]

[quote="oneya
Simple biology and a study of anatomy will show the weaknesses and strengths of any particular posture and all wado ryu postures are significantly shaped (angled?) in training to achieve maximum strengths through optimal physical alignment and governed weight displacement, this is essential 'throughout' the necessary movement.
oneya[/quote]

On this point, one of the teaching techniques Arakawa Toru uses - and which we saw Shimura sensei and Katsube sensei using last week - is he will lean his body onto the students fist and push against it, if the stance is correctly aligned then the student can stand in place and hold the instructors weight. If it is wrong, the stance collapses. They do this for all basic techniques. Try it with a partner next time you are in the dojo if this is new to you.

Sakagami sensei used to use a similar idea when he was explaining stances, trying to get us to think about how we could most effectively apply our body weight in the same way as if we were doing everyday activities (perhaps pushing a car or heavy furniture - how would you position your body and centre). Its a helpful reminder that Wado is supposed to use natural body movement.

Ben