Been practicing Rohai of late...

[oneya]

Hi TK,

It is an interesting ingredient yes but given that Ohtsuka meijin's prior koryu experience and predicated aims of a new "Japanese" art form, wouldn't you suppose that almost a century of intervening years of the 'wado ryu' experience (with such experience being diametrically opposed to the primary and predominant Nahate characteristics as such) would have filtered any such historical idiosyncrasies from its present wado ryu reality.?

I mean, with Shu Ha Ri fighting a losing battle in the quicksand of its current international diaspora as evidenced by today's Shotokan morphing its far and spectacular remove from Funakoshi Gichin's pre mainland experience and Itosu Anko legacy what price the integrity of Seishan's history.?


oneya

[Tim49]

Hi TK,

It is an interesting ingredient yes but given that Ohtsuka meijin's prior koryu experience and predicated aims of a new "Japanese" art form, wouldn't you suppose that almost a century of intervening years of the 'wado ryu' experience (with such experience being diametrically opposed to the primary and predominant Nahate characteristics as such) would have filtered any such historical idiosyncrasies from its present wado ryu reality.?

I mean, with Shu Ha Ri fighting a losing battle in the quicksand of its current international diaspora as evidenced by today's Shotokan morphing its far and spectacular remove from Funakoshi Gichin's pre mainland experience and Itosu Anko legacy what price the integrity of Seishan's history.?


oneya

Phew, had to read that three times!

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK

[oneya]

.... aye Tim, I guess you had to be there - but don't you find 'bun bu ryo do' to be difficult if red wine and black ink are placed side by side..

oneya

[T. Kimura]

I don't know what to say. However morphed and filtered, I think Wado Ryu is still karate in the sense of maintaining the major elements of the Okinawan art.

[Gusei21]

I don't know what to say. However morphed and filtered, I think Wado Ryu is still karate in the sense of maintaining the major elements of the Okinawan art.

TK,

I will see you in August and then I am curious if you will still have the same opinion.
We will start by tearing apart Naihanchi in terms of how to use the body correctly.
Having said that I was watching Ryuei Ryu and they do similar things.
But then Ryuei Ryu has a strong Chinese influence so that makes sense as opposed to Shuri te.

[oneya]

I don't know what to say. However morphed and filtered, I think Wado Ryu is still karate in the sense of maintaining the major elements of the Okinawan art.

I agree it is karate TK, but not only karate. It has this ‘karate’ element but from my perspective wado ryu is much more than this... It seems to me that any one view of wado ryu will be largely based upon the viewer’s prior experience which - if this has solely been from an Okinawan karate position - one will tend to “know” it only from that readily recognisable Okinawan aspect.

However, among the grey heads of wado ryu now - and what has also been understood for a few years - is that this same Okinawan aspect is considered to be a very small part of the whole, particularly by wado ryu renmei’s Ohtsuka sensei and family. Admittedly this same consideration is not so well understood - even by some practitioners – which is probably due in part to its Okinawan aspect being predominately the focus of its lengthy – but still preparatory - training for a number of years. It takes approximately 9 to 10 years to achieve a 3rd dan level which is about the level when the profundity of wado ryu begins to show a light on the hill. History tells us this was about the length of the Ohtsuka/Funakoshi relationship, not that I draw any conclusions from this similarity but it is interesting.

Allied to this decade or so of apprenticeship is the shiai tournament circuits where the ‘karate’ sport has forged another ethos altogether and a single ‘identity’ becomes even more elusive. Its early diaspora showed the many language difficulties encountered by its early students together with an almost complete lack of wado-ryu literature in the early global dissemination so any references were, by and large, linked to the same generic ‘karate’ label.

Into this we can mix the young newly minted Dai-gaku 'sensei' who were – in many cases - still in the process of understanding the deeper levels of their wares themselves.

And then there is a whole other koryu linked life beyond this decade or so of laying the foundation but you can call it karate if you want to.

Oneya..

[T. Kimura]

Oneya: That is a very rational and reasonable response. It is especially true that university karate is of a different breed. It is also true that I would tend to look at it as karate, and to see what I am looking for. It is not at all that I do not recognize differences in movement and generation of power, blocking concepts, ideology; I see these things clearly. Basically I think you are right. But I still see something that is clearly karate do; Historically, until the renmei started to advertise a Wadoryu jujitsu, Wado was never presented officially or publicly as anything other than a school of karate do.

[T. Kimura]

I don't know what to say. However morphed and filtered, I think Wado Ryu is still karate in the sense of maintaining the major elements of the Okinawan art.

TK,

I will see you in August and then I am curious if you will still have the same opinion.
We will start by tearing apart Naihanchi in terms of how to use the body correctly.
Having said that I was watching Ryuei Ryu and they do similar things.
But then Ryuei Ryu has a strong Chinese influence so that makes sense as opposed to Shuri te.

Bob: Unfortunately I doubt I can afford to fly up there and get a room and rental car. But after almost forty five years of practicing karate virtually every day, I doubt I would change my opinion that Wado is essentially a school of karate do.

[oneya]

But I still see something that is clearly karate do

Yes many do TK and many still only understand this small aspect of a ryuha philosophy that seeks to bring a natural understanding of harmony from within the world about them into perspective when they are young. A philosophy that ultimately will show the essence of a supple mind, body and spirit of a wado ryu antidote to the harshness of a violent conflict as an alternative to simply meeting violence with even more violence leaves a wado ryu practitioner better placed in modern society I feel. The karate connection is only part of the story but I fear lauding this only serves to dismiss the major plank of Ohtsuka meijin's philosophy and other major influences in his life.

oneya

[T. Kimura]

I think there may be a fair amount of semantics involved here; I think I recognize the nuances of Wado--at least some of them; and I think, being pretty old, I don't have a young man's understanding (like the daigaku attitude you mention-which I once very much had). I see and appreciate maturity and I suspect in terms of actual technique we would agree on much. Words get in the way. But I do see in Wado very much a style of karate--which may well indicate some lack of insight on my part, but in my eyes karate predominates--and that by a good margin.