When were the kata standardized?

[T. Kimura]

It appears that Ohtsuka Sensei met frequently with Mabuni Sensei after 1935; so 1936-40 sounds like the key period in the final draft rendering of the Wado katas. Konishi and Motobu were involved in the restructuring of Naifanchi, to be sure, but that was even earlier. Until at least 1932 the Funakoshi and Ohtsuka katas were quite similar. I was looking at the YouTube called Gichen Funakoshi 1924 footage (which is actually 1932 because Yoshitaka Funakoshi, Nakayama, and Egami are all recognizably present) and looking at pictures of Shoto-ryu before 1936, and there are some interesting pictures and article on karate by Jesse. It also appears that Rohai was the last kata added to the syllabus when Ohtsuka Sensei decided not to carry over Meikyo. Why Rohai shodan over Meikyo? An interesting question in and of itself. Apparently Jiin, Bassai Sho and Kushanku Sho never made the cut. Given his afinity for Chinto, one would think Phtsuka Sensei would have adopted Matsumura Rohai, but obviously did not. Interesting times, 1930-1940.

[oneya]

Not wado ryu but this thread landed me here to see an interesting - if not quite the standardised - version of meikyo.

While I find this version interesting, I feel that trying to understand Ohtsuka's kata preferences or anything wado ryu from the Shotokan or Okinawan experience is an exercise in futility. The only entry point with integrity as far as I can see is via the clean slate of shoshin and not because of wado-ryu or its contemporaries but simply because of the nature of homo sapiens and the notion of comparison. Homo sapiens being what they are, it is probably true to say the same of any style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQuEwf4L ... re=related

oneya

[blackcat]

It appears that Ohtsuka Sensei met frequently with Mabuni Sensei after 1935; so 1936-40 sounds like the key period in the final draft rendering of the Wado katas. Konishi and Motobu were involved in the restructuring of Naifanchi, to be sure, but that was even earlier. Until at least 1932 the Funakoshi and Ohtsuka katas were quite similar.

Hi TK

This is a more reliable source for you: http://www.wadokai.se/index.php?option= ... &Itemid=10

As for the frequency of meetings between Mabuni and Otsuka in the period you mention, Mabuni lived in Osaka, Otsuka was in Tokyo. Even today, it isn't a journey you would want to make frequently.

Ben

[T. Kimura]

It appears that Ohtsuka Sensei met frequently with Mabuni Sensei after 1935; so 1936-40 sounds like the key period in the final draft rendering of the Wado katas. Konishi and Motobu were involved in the restructuring of Naifanchi, to be sure, but that was even earlier. Until at least 1932 the Funakoshi and Ohtsuka katas were quite similar.

Hi TK

This is a more reliable source for you: http://www.wadokai.se/index.php?option= ... &Itemid=10

As for the frequency of meetings between Mabuni and Otsuka in the period you mention, Mabuni lived in Osaka, Otsuka was in Tokyo. Even today, it isn't a journey you would want to make frequently.

Ben

Thanks, Ben. I went and looked at that page rather carefully and it supports the ideas I have drawn from looking at video and pictures of the kata over time; from 1934 on, both Shotokan and Wadryu kata have diverged. 1938 is the date of real separation I had in my mind. I felt like the Wadoryu kata were not really finalized until fairly late, but not so late as 1970. I was thinking about 1950 or so. There is a You tube called Wadokai old which was shot in 1950 and things look pretty standard. I am fascinated by the historical changes and development in the kata. It is also interesting to note that Ohtsuka Sensei reiterated as late as 1970 that there are only 9 kata in Wadoryu. Again, Thanks

[oneya]

Thanks, Ben. I went and looked at that page rather carefully and it supports the ideas I have drawn from looking at video and pictures of the kata over time; from 1934 on, both Shotokan and Wadryu kata have diverged. 1938 is the date of real separation I had in my mind. I felt like the Wadoryu kata were not really finalized until fairly late, but not so late as 1970. I was thinking about 1950 or so. There is a You tube called Wadokai old which was shot in 1950 and things look pretty standard. I am fascinated by the historical changes and development in the kata. It is also interesting to note that Ohtsuka Sensei reiterated as late as 1970 that there are only 9 kata in Wadoryu. Again, Thanks

Hi Tak,

I think the 1950 era still had all wado groups united under the one 'Wadokai' banner at that time so the video 'wado kai old' would be interesting. I am not having any luck finding it so do you please have a link for it.?

oneya

[T. Kimura]

Yes, I'm sorry: I should have posted that!
Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa_K5UhKGeY

[blackcat]

Yes, I'm sorry: I should have posted that!
Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa_K5UhKGeY

Hi Tak

This film was made about 1964, just before Suzuki came to England.

I don't know if it is possible to pin down a precise year for when the kata were standardised. From what I understand, most of the core techniques as we know them - the basics, 9 kata and 10 kihon gumite, were pretty much recognisable as we all know them by the late 1940's although refinement and addition continued.


Ben

[oneya]

Hi Tak

This film was made about 1964, just before Suzuki came to England.

I don't know if it is possible to pin down a precise year for when the kata were standardised. From what I understand, most of the core techniques as we know them - the basics, 9 kata and 10 kihon gumite, were pretty much recognisable as we all know them by the late 1940's although refinement and addition continued.

Ben

Hi Ben, although they're not altogether very clear now but a quite a few of those faces are from the initial wado pioneers in Europe and the UK from 1965 onward and Suzuki's Pinan kata didn't change from then to the day he died. Other than Chinto which had its kokutsu-dachi difference at the beginning there were certainly variances in Bassai, Jitte and Wanshu which still remain to this day. I'd have to put this down to the nature of diaspora and group factions so I don't see any absolute standarisation any time soon. Then again, as we are only talking of the Okinawan kata heritage I think this change may be a normal development. Having said that, I don't see any variances in the koryu heritage except for the idiosyncratic adjustments and refinements which is as it should be..

oneya

[blackcat]

[
Hi Ben, although they're not altogether very clear now but a quite a few of those faces are from the initial wado pioneers in Europe and the UK from 1965 onward and Suzuki's Pinan kata didn't change from then to the day he died. Other than Chinto which had its kokutsu-dachi difference at the beginning there were certainly variances in Bassai, Jitte and Wanshu which still remain to this day. I'd have to put this down to the nature of diaspora and group factions so I don't see any absolute standarisation any time soon. Then again, as we are only talking of the Okinawan kata heritage I think this change may be a normal development. Having said that, I don't see any variances in the koryu heritage except for the idiosyncratic adjustments and refinements which is as it should be..

oneya

Hi Reg

What I mean is that the custom and practice adopted as the core of the Wadoryu was standardised in a format we would probably recognise by the late 1940's. In particular, the practice of the 9 kata. Otsuka's 1970 book apparently makes that clear but I understand the earlier work which was limited in circulation, also made this point.

Absolute standardisation in terms of performance is something that is relevent for competition but probably doesn't matter so much for general training. For me, the important aspect is whether or not the karate practice follows the Wadoryu principles, so it is not so important which way someone does a kata as it is how they do it.

Ben

[oneya]

For me, the important aspect is whether or not the karate practice follows the Wadoryu principles, so it is not so important which way someone does a kata as it is how they do it.

Ben

Ah, I think we probably travel with the same seichusen /embusen opinion Ben.

oneya