When were the kata standardized?

[T. Kimura]

Hi Reg

What I mean is that the custom and practice adopted as the core of the Wadoryu was standardised in a format we would probably recognise by the late 1940's. In particular, the practice of the 9 kata. Otsuka's 1970 book apparently makes that clear but I understand the earlier work which was limited in circulation, also made this point.

Yes, this is what I am looking for; when were the 9 core kata formalized by floor pattern, stance, and more or less terminal position, for the respective counts in the kata. My idea was very much the same as you suggest here; by 1938 key divergences from Shotokan were in place, then there was the complete disruption of the karate world by WWII, and finally there would be a desperate need for standardization of the kata as they tried to reorganize and regroup returning from war. I have read or heard several people say almost everyone forgot kata during the war; I think the kata in their current form were much in place by 1949. There was some input from Kenwa Mabuni who died in 1952, so I think the "normalization phase of the Pinans was during the war or just before the war (much more likely). The year 1938 was likely pretty important in the history of Wado. Conversely, 1934-1940 marks Yoshitaka Funakoshi's many changes in Shotokan.
Jitte, Jion, Chinto, Bassai, Seishan, Niseishi, and Wanshu of pre 1934 Shotokan seem quite similar to contemporary wadoryu--especially Wadokai versions.
In fact, The Mabuni "corrections" or Shito input seems incomplete in contemporary wadoryu--it seems clearly evident only in the Pinans and Kushanku--there is extremely little in Niseishi, Jion and Jitte and none in Bassai, Seishan, Chinto and Wanshu. Rohai is taken directly from shitoryu. I still can't understand why Ohtsuka Sensei did not adopt Meikyo rather than Rohai shodan, as it was frequently practiced while he was with Funakoshi. My theory is that he liked the naihanchi type qualities in rohai.
Thanks so much, everyone, for your input, T.

[Phill25467]

Firstly, my apologies for not being on any of the Wado forums for quite a while. I hope those of you I know are well.

Yesterday I was reading an interview with Sensei Y.Konishi, the son of the founder of Shindo Jinen Ryu. He talks quite a bit about his father's relationship with Ohtsuka Sensei during the time discussed. It makes very interesting reading particullary for those of you interested in the historical aspects to Japanese Budo.

Sensei Y.Konishi says that around 1935 his father (the late Konishi Sensei), Ueshiba Sensei, Mabuni Sensei and Ohtsuka Sensei were training together almost daily. He goes on into more detail with regard to some of the purpose of their training together at this time, it makes interesting reading.

The interview is from the book "Karate Masters" Volume 3 by Jose M.Fraguas. It also features interviews with Sensei T.Suzuki and Sensei H.Ohtsuka II, so from a Wado-Ryu perspective it makes it a very interesting book and one I very much recommend.

Kind Regards,
Peter Hill
www.devonwadoryu.co.uk

[Tim49]

Firstly, my apologies for not being on any of the Wado forums for quite a while. I hope those of you I know are well.

Yesterday I was reading an interview with Sensei Y.Konishi, the son of the founder of Shindo Jinen Ryu. He talks quite a bit about his father's relationship with Ohtsuka Sensei during the time discussed. It makes very interesting reading particullary for those of you interested in the historical aspects to Japanese Budo.

Sensei Y.Konishi says that around 1935 his father (the late Konishi Sensei), Ueshiba Sensei, Mabuni Sensei and Ohtsuka Sensei were training together almost daily. He goes on into more detail with regard to some of the purpose of their training together at this time, it makes interesting reading.

The interview is from the book "Karate Masters" Volume 3 by Jose M.Fraguas. It also features interviews with Sensei T.Suzuki and Sensei H.Ohtsuka II, so from a Wado-Ryu perspective it makes it a very interesting book and one I very much recommend.

Kind Regards,
Peter Hill
http://www.devonwadoryu.co.uk

As things have gone a bit quiet I wanted to pick up on Peter’s reference to Ohtsuka Sensei training with Ueshiba Morihei.

In the past this suggestion has appeared on various websites but in all probability was just guesswork, the main flaw being that the years just didn’t match up; Ueshiba was never in the area when these connections were made.

It is interesting that Peter gives us the year 1935 as that would be about right. What is also interesting is that this period of pre-war Aikido was more the Aiki-Budo period, a kind of halfway house between Daito Ryu and the modern Aikido

Let me say that I have no axe to grind on this one, it doesn’t matter to me one jot whether Ohtsuka Sensei and Ueshiba Sensei ever crossed hands across the tatami, apart from idle curiosity.

I know that Konishi was influenced by Ueshiba, who suggested to him some revisions for his kata (look up Tai Sabaki kata of the Ryobukai), though even in the examples presented on Youtube I don’t think I am sufficiently qualified to spot Ueshiba influenced moves, leaves me scratching my head.

But my thoughts are that Ueshiba was so far ‘out there’ that maybe even the Koryu guys feel he’s a step too far (dangerous of me to say that – expect to be jumped on any time…now). Part Shaman, part visionary, far too many wacky claims and magic stories (only have to refer to two points,…. ‘firing squad’ and ‘disappearing act’).

So, I struggle to see any technical links between Ueshiba and Ohtsuka. For my money Ohtsuka was far too grounded and focussed on his own agenda. But maybe in this period there was some common ground. However this was a period when Ueshiba was quite protective about his art (he refused to teach Kodokan’s Mifune because he was afraid he would steal his art).

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK

[oneya]

Hi Tim,

I wouldn't be game to cite Ueshiba sensei either and the three elementary Ryobukai kata were bemusing enough but there's a little more 'connective taisabaki tissue' towards the end of this video of Konishi Yasuhiro that has surfaced from Australia's Jinen ryu history.

NB. I don't have a brown dog in this fight either, I'm just throwing it in the mix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8DSDvsD ... re=related

oneya

[T. Kimura]

The black belt on the left in kumite is Kiyoshi Yamazaki, Ryobukai 9 dan and JKF 8 dan.

[oneya]

The black belt on the left in kumite is Kiyoshi Yamazaki, Ryobukai 9 dan and JKF 8 dan.

Which has to be indicative of just how symbolic that token of 'connective taisabaki tissue' has to be in the broad brush church of karate and the Ohtsuka - Konishi - Ueshiba connection.?

oneya