dan grade policy

[claas]

Surely giving him a white belt would upset him and perhaps be the driving force to him either going to find another club or quitting?

Whilst I am not 15 years old, but if this happened to me and someone handed me a whitebelt, my thought process would be, I really dont think I could go through all that again ;p

Now that we know it's a Wado grade it's different.


But I really do not understand this obsession with grades. This "pride". Some people really take pride in a grade and say others should do so likewise. In football (soccer) there are no grades. If you pass the ball without losing it, you're the man. But you will never get a grade for it. ("You can pass the ball.")
In many arts there are no grades. What's important is what you can manifest.
I guess Wado is like this too. I really think every serious student and teacher just do their thing. You see a flaw and you correct it, as a teacher. As a student, you do your best. It doesn't matter which colour you see. Grades are there to support the way that things have to be learned. From the basics to the advanced stuff.

So there are grades and there is progression.


I really do not get your point Andy.
I'm not trolling here. I never will.

If someone quits because he wants to maintain a belt that would be a joke among the rest of the people really training there, what would be your choice as an instructor?

I am sensing here some "grade-pride". Please tell me more about that... How you should have pride...
... If that's not what you are saying, what are you saying?


I would really not care too much about a student that leaves because he can't have his old grade...
Motivation is everything. Grades are nothing.

[kyudo]

But I really do not understand this obsession with grades.

I DO understand the obsession with grades. It is what you get when people have to go through an elaborate grading process, all the way from 10th kyu to 8th dan. So, unless you abandon grading altogether, you are supporting the system.
Nothing wrong with that. (Well, not that much, anyway.) But it makes no sense to support a system while telling people to ignore it.

As an aside: I have a hard time convincing my teenage son that school is not about grades, but about actually learning something. Grading is ingrained in the system. And it has been there since its introduction during the industrial revolution. Because this type of grading exists to enable a large scale industrial system of churning out students. It has very little to do with suhari or koryu.

[claas]

But I really do not understand this obsession with grades.

I DO understand the obsession with grades. It is what you get when people have to go through an elaborate grading process, all the way from 10th kyu to 8th dan. So, unless you abandon grading altogether, you are supporting the system.
Nothing wrong with that. (Well, not that much, anyway.) But it makes no sense to support a system while telling people to ignore it.

All this is a question of mindset. I think the grading system is a good tool for several things. Many times however people become blind because of it and forget that it is not about the grades, it's about the training.

You could put it this way: The grades are there for the training. The training is not there for the grades.


It does make sense to be a supporter of the grading system and tell people not to care too much about grades, while at the same time encourage them to take new grades. If this looks contradictory, then our mindsets simply are different. I think not caring too much about grades but using the system instead is the way we should feel about the grading system.
The grading system is good. People sometimes are not.

[kyudo]

The grades are there for the training. The training is not there for the grades.

The gradings are not for training. You can very well train without grades. That's not a mindset. It's just a fact.
The gradings are there for the system. And the system exists to mold you into something new. There's a fundamental feature of grading that sets it apart. Grading is objective. It facilitates an objective system of evaluation. That is why it exists. Certainly not for training.

Kear sensei suggests to look at it subjectvily. Each person is different and should be treated differently. I share his view...

[Normanski]

I would say the problem is that gradings aren't objective. They're subjective depending on the dojo/asociation head. If they were truly objective then one could transfer from dojo to dojo and be at the exact same level as the same grade in a different dojo. It's a problem that most martial arts styles have had for a long long time. You get a nidan who is a fantastic martial artist but in a small asociation that sticks to the traditional standards of promotion who is then judged by some one who knows a 13 year old 4th dan who is frankly terrible. I dont see a way round it unless there is standardisation and that will never happen because egos won't allow it. When I changed styles I would have been quite happy to start as white belt again and I'm still thinking about it as it would mean starting with my young son at the same level.

[claas]

The grades are there for the training. The training is not there for the grades.

The gradings are not for training. You can very well train without grades. That's not a mindset. It's just a fact.
The gradings are there for the system. And the system exists to mold you into something new. There's a fundamental feature of grading that sets it apart. Grading is objective. It facilitates an objective system of evaluation. That is why it exists. Certainly not for training.

You seem to try hard not to get my point.
Also your logic isn't flawless.

I don't get it how what you say would mean the gradings aren't there for the training. Everything is there for the training. In a way you could say I am only stating obvious stuff here. It really surprises me that it is even possible to try to disagree.

[kyudo]

Also your logic isn't flawless.

Could you point out the flaws? I'd be glad to learn.

I don't get it how what you say would mean the gradings aren't there for the training. Everything is there for the training. In a way you could say I am only stating obvious stuff here. It really surprises me that it is even possible to try to disagree.

Ok. You were right earlier in the discussion. It's a mindset.
Apparently, your mindset is that everything is for training.
My mindset is that training is for everything.
Big difference.
Can we agree to disagree on that?

I would say the problem is that gradings aren't subjective. They're objective depending on the dojo/asociation head. If they were truly objective then one could transfer from dojo to dojo and be at the exact same level as the same grade in a different dojo.

Indeed, the grading system doesn't exactly function as designed. But I'm having increasing doubts about its design in the first place. I find that the idea of objective assessment somehow doesn't sit well with an art such as wado. Or any other art, for that matter. Could it be that we took a wrong turn some 100 years ago? We may be drifting a bit off-topic here, but Seth Godin wrote an interesting book on the subject recently which points out quite a few flaws in our scholing system. Which includes Wado as well, I would say.
It is available for free here:
http://www.squidoo.com/stop-stealing-dreams
I'm not saying I have all the answers. But perhaps it's about time to seriously think about the subject, without being blinded by the current grading system.

[oneya]

Ok. You were right earlier in the discussion. It's a mindset.
Apparently, your mindset is that everything is for training.
My mindset is that training is for everything.

In the study of anything at all: a mindset is the last thing anyone needs. A mindset prevents learning.

muda ga nai.

oneya

[laurie]

Hi Kyudo,
Maybe we need to give this 15 year old a little more credit? Put yourself in his shoes - what would you wish your sensei do if he thought that there were question marks over your grade? Although remembering back through the mists of time to when I was 15 bears the risk of a certain degree of "rose-tinted-spectacleness", I'm fairly sure that my goal was to do well in the eyes of not only my sensei, but also the other students (i.e. adults) that I was training with. I would like to think that if anyone thought that I didn't deserve my grade that I would have thrown the belt down and gone out to prove to any doubters that I had "what it took". Being 15 years old, this guy is at a very important stage in his development and depending on whether he goes to uni (or maybe compulsory military service if the Netherlands has such a thing?) you may only have a handful of years to point him in the right direction and give him an understanding of the depths that wado can reach.

I wouldn't be surprised if he does have a fixation on "grade", but at 15 this is probably his view of how his performance is measured and there's a good chance that he does have a strong desire to perform as well as he can. If this is the case then this could be a valuable experience for him and with your help could enable him to see the value in knowledge and understanding rather than the more tangible aspects of the grading system. Maybe adopting the old "honesty is the best policy" approach would reap benefits if you sit him down and talk through with him the issues and concerns that you have? You might be pleasantly surprised at the response you get - if he trusts you and your abilities then he may very well offer up his dan grade and ask to sit the grading again when he's worked through the issues that you have highlighted. One issue to consider, however, is that the cost of grading may well be borne by his parents. They may not be so understanding if they have to stump up the cash for something that they consider that they have already paid for, so some care may be required if the cost of sitting a dan grading is pricey.

Just my 2 cents worth :),
Laurie
Brisbane, Australia

[Gusei21]

Interesting.
My system is pretty simple.
I give the newcomer a choice. They can either put on a white belt or keep the belt they have for up to a year.
Then at that time they must take a test/or not and I will give them the belt I feel they deserve.
Simple.
If they insist on wearing a white belt then I know they came from a certain mindset. :)
If they are attached to their current belt then I know they came from another.

We then just carry on with the training. It seems to work itself out over time.