Sparring

[karateman7]

Not sure if this would work, but this may be one for the "Wadopedia" section.

From what sparring I've seen in wado, it seems that many people incorporate the linear attack and retreat method for sparring.

I've been taught four things when it comes to sparring:

1) You're always pressing your opponent (which I think translates to there is no retreating unless, of course, it's part of a process ).
2) Your technique isn't complete until it's complete (i.e. a juntsuki can easily turn into an uraken if the opening is closed midway through excecution).
3) Going based on the previous point--if you get one technique in, there is no reason you have to stop at one technique ala Shotokan and most other Okinawan arts I've been exposed to- I hesitate to say wado incorporates the chain method (kung fu) as to not take away from it's own unique approach.
4) Most importantly- no wasted movement or energy!

Are these points what you would call the intended purpose of sparring? Meaning it's one of those things you always strive for but take it as a process. Or is this what people mean by wado is becoming too "sport oriented?"

[WadoAJ]

Hi KM7,

i'm not sure what you mean. You use the word "sparring". Do you mean jiyu gumite or shiai gumite? And do you always "just spar" like in the same way?

AJ

[kyudo]

Are these points what you would call the intended purpose of sparring?

As far as I'm concerned, I use kumite as a learning tool for
• ma-ai
• sen
• taisabaki
• dealing with stress
as well as all the obvious other stuff.

It seems to me that ma-ai and sen can't be learned without kumite. I don't draw a strict line between yakusoku kumite and jiyu kumite. However, I don't particularly like shiai. It tends to mess up ma-ai. And it's too (unrealistically) fast for taisabaki.

All that, offcourse, is my very own personal opinion. I'm aware that many people don't share the same view...

[oneya]

However, I don't particularly like shiai. It tends to mess up ma-ai. And it's too (unrealistically) fast for taisabaki.

Ah that's a relief Igor, and here was I thinking it was me just getting older and slower..

[Wado heretic]

I find the basic, using the closest word I can come to, 'principles' change; depending on the style of sparring and inherent limitations the rules you are presented with impose.

I agree with the assessment of the practice of shiai as mentioned prior, having watched it I conclude that it lends it self to pure speed and an effort to 'touch' your opponant. Frankly, it bears a greater resemblence to amatuer foil fencing than it does any Wado-Ryu kumite I have seen. Then again, I might be missing something and viewing it through my own prism without taking the time to see any deeper layers.

Something that has really changed my view of sparring has been my participating in full contact knockdown competition, but also experimenting with self defence based freestyle sparring.

2) Your technique isn't complete until it's complete (i.e. a juntsuki can easily turn into an uraken if the opening is closed midway through excecution).

In knockdown competition, I have found this to be true only of kicks that require chambering and a chudan juntsuki that can be turned into an empi on the follow through. One of the requirements is that a participant's blows are seen to be affecting their opponent in a visible manner. Usually, this requires a commitment to any movement made.

In a similar vein, the only time I have been able to subdue my 'attacker' in the self defence scenarios I have experimented with has been by fully commiting to my techniques. However, these may simply reflect my own inadequacies and a failing on my half to understand the context of such an idea.

[karateman7]

Sorry for the late response.

So many good things to talk about, though.

AJ--yes, I was referring to jiyu kumite.

Most of the times, I think I am watching training for shiai tournament. I don't think there is nothing wrong with this because as mentioned it is a good learning tool for maai.

The problem was also mentioned. I'm not sure where tai sabaki or kuzushi (aside from ashi barai) come into play when you're focus is on tagging the person. I just wasn't sure if what we were practicing as our kumite was the same or different than what I was seeing and defended my point before any conversation began.

[andyb28]

3) Going based on the previous point--if you get one technique in, there is no reason you have to stop at one technique ala Shotokan and most other Okinawan arts I've been exposed to- I hesitate to say wado incorporates the chain method (kung fu) as to not take away from it's own unique approach.

Ok, I will bite... :)
Wouldn't you want to see what happens from your first technique before deciding what to do next?

[Wado heretic]

Speaking from experiance, there is an element of both yes and no to any answer that can be given to that question. In many ways it is one that reaches out and pulls us into the murky waters of tai sabaki. To misuse the term and bludgeon it's meaning entirely; for my examples I shall be treating tai sabaki as 'evasion'.

When sparring in full contact, most opponents will come forward to meet you to begin attacking you with as many blows as possible. This is because the point system requires that you be shown to be effecting your opponent with your blows, thus aggression is usually the best option. The only time distancing comes into play is usually in open weight competition, where taller competitors don't want to get caught at their shorter opponents favoured range, or where weaker players try to score early knockouts with head kicks.

However, I digress. Being a wadoka I favour keeping a distance where I can follow my opponents movements and thus position myself advantageously. Thus, when I do move in offensively I cannot stop at one technique as I must commit myself to an effective assault. Thus, the 'chain' attack must be made up of committed techniques of both distraction and offense. If I stop at one technique, to see it's affect, I would find myself falling back from an counter attack quickly. Saying this though, I am not a top 'player' and thus I do rely on offense to overwhelm more capable opponents.

On another note though, the few times I have had to defend myself, I have always only struck once before attempting a restraint. I have never followed up with a second strike for the sake of it. There is both a technical as well as legal reason to this, in a real fight you may safely assume your attacker might draw a weapon. Thus, commiting to a flurry of strikes that might not even allow you to take control of your assailant is fool hardy, especially if you cause actual or gross bodily harm. Also, they might have someone aiding them, thus it is important to always be fully aware and thus understanding what your strikes are actually doing.
I am not explaining this perfectly well at all, the best way I can put is that you must be fully aware of each movement made and constantly aware of your position. If your mind is on attacking, it is only there and no where else.

Hopefully; this demonstrates the difference between self defence and rule free fighting and sparring, even at it's most realistic. You can afford tunnel vision in sparring, you cannot in real fighting.

[andyb28]

I think that explained it very well.

So basically you are saying in a controlled dojo environment, you would fight in a different way to defending yourself on the street. I would say thats probably true of most of us here. However, to keep the discussion going a bit I will use myself as an example. Please bear in mind I am in-experienced compared to most on here.

I have a lovely technique which I often use in the dojo and in competition which was taught to me by an ex England fighter. Its very simple, from the spot, lunge punch, reverse punch, then roundhouse kick, whilst moving forward in a kind of leap. (not sure how well thats explained) So the punches go to the head whilst travelling forward (pushing off your back foot), the reverse punch movement of the hips disguises the roundhouse kick coming. Its scored me many points before.

HOWEVER....

This works well on people that dont realy know what they are doing, but as soon as you try it on someone that does, they are well aware that the two punches are far too far away to hit them and will throw their counter after my punches but before the kick. Because I have decided to string three techniques together before I moved, my brain has no chance of the counter coming in the middle of my flurry. I have been bent in two doing this and learnt the lesson the hard way.

Andy

[Wado heretic]

Thank you, I am not at all that experianced my self. I am only an Ikkyu and have only just reached my fourth year of Wado Training. However, I enjoy full contact competition as a test of myself, I also like what little glory I have accumulated but that's a secret, and have worked as a doorman on several occasions. So my experiance of fighting is some what disproportionate to my over all Wado experiance.

So basically you are saying in a controlled dojo environment, you would fight in a different way to defending yourself on the street. I would say thats probably true of most of us here.

That is partly what I am saying; I still think the dojo should reflect reality. However, with the dojo being an artificial enviroment we can afford to disavow 'reality' as it were. We should not but we can and that is part of the nature of the beast as all martial arts are eventually guilty of it. That is what I mean by being able to afford tunnel vision in the dojo, but not out on the street. You can trust your partner not to try and kill you, or that your fellow students won't all pile in to beat you up. You never have those comforts on the street.

Being aware of this fact, is what changes my tactics. Hence why I commit to offensive combinations in the dojo or at a competition, however on the street I do not risk it as I need to always be aware and your point about your favoured combination demonstrates why. You have to be recalling what you are going to do next, or you need to set them up to be effective and that is the weakness of the tactic. All it takes is for someone to see through it and strike back for it to fail, and when it comes to self defence you must never lose.

So I would say, yes, most of us do have to consider how differently we would fight in reality in comparison to in the dojo. Sadly, sparring can give people the illusion of 'real' fighting and so they rush head long into it under the impression that is what will make them a better fighter. Ignoring completely the reason for the existance of the Kihon and Ohyo Gumite traditions, or why we have pads and other equipment lying around.

Actually; our very own Oneya speaks about such matters much better then I in this interview; http://www.blitzmag.net/people/karate/2 ... ool-part-2

Anyway; I have diverged from sparring and into the differences between it and real violence. If I had any real advice or 'rules' I'd sum them up in two ways.

1. Do not panic, assume and especially do not react.
2. All your movements must be able to knock their teeth out, no matter the purpose of the movement, it must scream intent.