Gedan Barai

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
Inagokun
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Gedan Barai

Post by Inagokun »

Hi all, i was practicing Pinan Nidan lately, and i wondered why is in kata Gedan barai the preferred technique against maegeri. While in sanbon kumite the most used technique is Soto harai uke. What is your experience regarding this subject?

Inagokun
Last edited by Inagokun on Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Inagokun.
Tim49
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Re: Gedan Barai

Post by Tim49 »

Inagokun wrote:Hi all, i was practicing Pinan Nidan lately, and i wondered why is in kata Gedan barai the preferred technique against maegeri. While in sanbon kumite the most used technique is Soto harai uke. What is your experience regarding this subject?

Inakogun
Hi Inagokun
Not sure what you are saying here.
The names Gedan barai/Gedan Harai Uke only describes the protective action not what it’s used against. I would have to think long and hard to wonder if I have ever used anything like gedan harai uke against a maegeri, I’d have to say the only variation I might have used would have probably involved a significant amount of body shifting, more than is usually obvious in a standard gedan harai uke (whether it is a soto or uchi uke).

So I would not say that Gedan Harai Uke/Gedan barai is the ‘preferred’ defence against maegeri.

Tim
Gary
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Re: Gedan Barai

Post by Gary »

Hi Inagokun,

In my group, we practice both gedan barai and soto harai uke (or at least what I think you mean by this) against maegeri in our pair work, however as Tim says, the most important bit is how you move your body - not what you are doing with your arms.

With reference to the move in Pinan Nidan - in his book - Otsuka sensei describes these movements as "gedan defences" - he actually makes no mention of blocking a kick.

Gary
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Inagokun
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Re: Gedan Barai

Post by Inagokun »

Thanks for your reply, but i formulated it wrong. What i tried to say was, that when maegeri is used in kaisetsu from pinan nidan the technique used is gedan barai. While i do not use that exact gedan barai in sanbon kumite, though they both have to deal with the same maegeri.

Inagokun
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Tim49
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Re: Gedan Barai

Post by Tim49 »

Gary wrote:Hi Inagokun,

In my group, we practice both gedan barai and soto harai uke (or at least what I think you mean by this) against maegeri in our pair work, however as Tim says, the most important bit is how you move your body - not what you are doing with your arms.

With reference to the move in Pinan Nidan - in his book - Otsuka sensei describes these movements as "gedan defences" - he actually makes no mention of blocking a kick.

Gary
Excellent point Gary,
Probably giving too much away here but, within Wado, watching someone’s ‘Gedan barai’ is one of the most revealing ways of observing their level of understanding. It gives away where their emphasis is in how they use their limbs in proportion to their body.

Tim
Inagokun
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Re: Gedan Barai

Post by Inagokun »

So it is not the Gedan barai being different, but it is an other way of moving your body?
Inagokun.
WadoAJ
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Re: Gedan Barai

Post by WadoAJ »

Hi Inagokun,

have been reading first to see where this was going. I had difficulty reading what you were trying to say. I guess you are referring to kaisetsu that you have seen involving maegeri, and linking that to your experience with soto harai uke from sanbon gumite series? If that is the case, then I guess Tim and Gary already gave you the 'answer'. Gedan barai (for example from pinan nidan after jodan uke series), is secundary to learning how to move the body. On the other hand, gedan barai is used in harmony with with bodymovement and is "following" the body movement. (gedan barai is part of the movement, not seperately, but part of a whole - san mi ittai) If you can figure our what the relationship is between the technique, the body movement and the difference between kata as a method and kumite as a method you might just get your answer instantly.

Either way, gedan barai from pinan nidan is not against maegeri.

AJ
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Gary
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Re: Gedan Barai

Post by Gary »

A few years ago my group hosted a course with Arakawa (Toru) sensei.

Needless to say it was fantastic, but the one thing that stuck in my mind over the entire course was the third movement in Pinan Nidan (mainly because we spent best part of 2 hours [or at least it seemed] on that one move.)

Although on the surface it is a simple turn into gedan barai – in reality, to do it efficiently with good movement, weight transfer and timing is a real challenge.

My (limited) understanding of kaisetsu is that it is a “physical commentary” ie an “as if” to allow the practitioner to realise the technique, almost through the minds eye, coupled with physical doing. However – as always with Wado, there is a bigger picture that is not always easy to see for the immediate.

When we add correct weight transfer, timing and interaction etc – it opens up a whole new ball game.

Gary
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

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oneya
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Re: Gedan Barai

Post by oneya »

Hi Inagokun, welcome to the forum.

Your question is almost impossible to answer because the premise is incorrect which leaves anyone responding wondering what part of the question to try to unravel.

In broad terms everything in wado ryu is a process which means that it is in a constant state of change. The change in governed by a student’s capacity to learn and usually implemented by an instructor that understands this.

Kata is a case in point which has many facets and what you see is not always the reality. A little frustrating perhaps but kata will reveal itself as you begin to understand the process more.

Sanbon kumite is another aspect of wado ryu that moves the process of wado ryu along so you will learn different aspects of the process and quite often you will learn different ways of accomplishing the same thing – in this case a low level attack = these are not preferred techniques but more the building blocks to an arsenal of techniques.

oneya
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Craven
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Re: Gedan Barai

Post by Craven »

HI Inagokun,

I think I understand what you’re asking in & in my ‘humble opinion’ I would say that it’s not really the block that is being trained here but, as already said, how you move your body. I remember attending a course with Sugasawa Sensei several years ago in Essex where he had us practise Pinan Nidan & I think Kihon Gumite Ipponme (my memory is vague), but without any blocks/arm movement. For me that was one of those moments when it felt like a light bulb was switched on in my head and I had what I can only describe as a wow moment! I realised then that what I had been doing before this was merely Karate not Wado. Anyway my point is, take away the blocks in the Kata & think about what you have left to stop you getting hit and hopefully you will find some answers.

Hope that makes sense and you have a light bulb moment soon, I recommend it? ;)

DJ
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