Changes in kata

[omote]

Greetings all,

Having seen this topic discussed in hundreds of threads around the net for years, I thought I would bring it to the forefront for a moment.

While at a training recently, the issue of a kata movement being modified by someone came up. The requisite lecture of "kata must never be changed" came about. It was followed by the knowing nods of agreement by all seniors in the room. While I too agree with the principle, I have found it to either be complete b/s, or I am missing the intent of the sentiment, at least in Wado.

As Gusei21 has stated many times, Mr. Kuroda credits his discoveries to his family never changing the kata. Suzuki Sensei, Shiomitsu Sensei and many others I have trained with preach the gospel of kata preservation. All of them seem to completely ignore that ALL of the Wado kata are done differently now than they were 30 years ago. Most of them in the JOG have had something changed in the last decade. I see no one performing kata exactly as Ohtsuka sensei did in the published videos.

Any of the seniors here that can help le sort out what I'm missing, or is this the elephant in the room that we should all dutifully ignore.

Omote.

[wadoka]

I don't think it is the elephant in the room, it is just a case of who can appreciate the reasons.

We have said many times that Shiomitsu sensei's karate is different to Suzuki Sensei's karate, etc....... We also have said many times that no one can move like Ohtsuka sensei. When I say we, it is the collective 'we' as I have never seen Ohtsuka sensei apart from the short videos but you get my drift.

So, what I am trying to get at, is that we know things are "different" and changes have occurred over the large span of time, like evolution.

As you get longer in the tooth, that doesn't cause any problems. You learn along the way that Ohstuka sensei himself taught differently to different people who were at different levels of their Wado journey. That is all very comfortable.

If we concentrate on the differences, we may lose the value of the lesson in the rest of the similarities. (Sounds very like finger pointing at the moon talk, sorry.)

[claas]

All of them seem to completely ignore that ALL of the Wado kata are done differently now than they were 30 years ago.

In what way should they (have had) pay(ed) attention to this? What kind of changes are you talking about?

[Tim49]

Greetings all,

Having seen this topic discussed in hundreds of threads around the net for years, I thought I would bring it to the forefront for a moment.

While at a training recently, the issue of a kata movement being modified by someone came up. The requisite lecture of "kata must never be changed" came about. It was followed by the knowing nods of agreement by all seniors in the room. While I too agree with the principle, I have found it to either be complete b/s, or I am missing the intent of the sentiment, at least in Wado.

As Gusei21 has stated many times, Mr. Kuroda credits his discoveries to his family never changing the kata. Suzuki Sensei, Shiomitsu Sensei and many others I have trained with preach the gospel of kata preservation. All of them seem to completely ignore that ALL of the Wado kata are done differently now than they were 30 years ago. Most of them in the JOG have had something changed in the last decade. I see no one performing kata exactly as Ohtsuka sensei did in the published videos.

Any of the seniors here that can help le sort out what I'm missing, or is this the elephant in the room that we should all dutifully ignore.

Omote.

No elephants as far as I can see.

The core nine Kata in Wado are alive, not ossified.

So called ‘changes’ are only detrimental if the essentials are mucked around with through lack of understanding.

Ohtsuka Sensei left a series of guiding principles, these act as an excellent compass; stick with these and you are heading in the right direction.

Tim

[omote]

All,

Thanks for the responses. It is obvious I should have been more clear on examples, and also my position on the matter.

I for one could care less if Chinto begins with Kokutsu dachi per Suzuki sensei & Wado Renmei, or "parallel stance" per JKF/Wado-kai and the Shitei gata. Or if we begin most KK with tate seishan vs. sheiko dachi. I see the principles being taught are the same, or different for a purpose. However, there is no denying that they have been changed, in the strictest sense of the word.

I have also been around long enough to see the evolution of the senior most instructors' Wado. I have no issue with them changing/evolving anything they like, and I am grateful to have the chance to learn from their genius. Mine is simply an observation that we say "kata never be changed", but that seems to come down to degree, or definition of the word "change".

I understand the necessity for what is happening from a technical evolution, I just wonder why culturally we don't say "the kata can be changed, but never the principle".

omote

[claas]

I think it is a question of what defines a kata. I think the principle defines it, or was it vice versa? ;)

[Gusei21]

Most of them in the JOG have had something changed in the last decade. I see no one performing kata exactly as Ohtsuka sensei did in the published videos.

Hi,
What is JOG?

I am not sure if we can compare the kata of Yagyu Shinkage ryu to Wado. Two different animals I think.
Otsuka Sensei intentionally mucked with the kata he learned from Funakoshi, Mabuni and Motobu.
He did so because he wanted to impose his own ideas.
So right off the bat we have deviated from the original kata.
And like I said in the past some Okinawan friends of mine look down on Wado kata for that very reason.
Be that as it may... Otsuka Sensei changed it so..
And we are doing Otsuka Sensei's verson of karate, not and Okinawan version.
Then we have Otsuka Sensei constantly refining his kata because he keeps growing as a martial artist.
Chinto's kokutsu dachi turns to naname heiko dachi by the time he passes away because he feels the newer version is more consistent with the karate he wants to portray.
So he starts with DOS 3.0 and ends with Windows 7.
At any given point in time different people learned kata from Otsuka Sensei and unless they kept checking back in they did not update their operating system. Or some people did get the memo but refused the upgrade for one reason or another.

Then in the Wadokai ( I cannot speak for Wadoryu or WIKF) after Otsuka Sensei passed away the Technical committee gets together and decides how the kata should be done. Some people on the TC might remember things differently or may decide to change things just because and so it is a function of who has the power at what time.
Then there is the JKF version(Chinto, Seishan Kushanku Niseishi) which has been the sole responsibility of Toru Arakawa. And we have a few Wadokai TC members very unhappy with the JKF version created by Arakawa Sensei. But if you ask everyone they will say kata should never be changed willy nilly.

I would never dare think of changing the kata. Only people with really big gonads should be changing kata.
Personally I just do it the way the TC wants it done because they are the people who exam me and define the criteria.
Tomorrow if they want me to drop my shorts in the middle of Kushanku, so be it...but then at some point I will start to wonder.

[oneya]

Hi,

From where I stand Ohtsuka meijin was a realist and the reality is: simple logic tells us as human beings we all live in a constant universal state of change and kata is no different. Wado kata is based on a few fundamental principles of movement in which it can be said 'the principles are constant' and this and movement itself embodies constant change. The study and practice of wado kata promotes a deeper understanding of its raison d’être, which again is predicated on change as progression. Ohtsuka meijin, coming from a different perspective than Okinawa te, used a different kanji than the one used for Okinawan kata and in doing so gave emphasis to the progressive process of kata within the wado ryu, both of which manifests the notion of change. Change ensures that we both live and we die. Even in death there will be change.

Another reality is: many will confuse the maxim and philosophy that deals with change in the essence of Shu Ha Ri and arrive at the facile but stultifying ‘kata must never be changed’ statement complete with nodding seniors. It seems to matter little that the wado ryu has long been known as the thinking man’s karate and yet there are seniors who will regurgitate this “kata must never be changed” dogma even as they change it. I guess there are seniors and then there are Seniors. Kata itself is only one part of many among the wado ryu medium for change in each practitioner as we develop our understanding of wado. As we understand more we find changes to our thinking can show how its parts may sometimes be kata or a dormancy of dead men’s words naturally revivified through the individual kaisetsu process, even while the kata remains a constant in the process.

Wado ryu is a lengthy process because it is a collective journey that cannot be finished except as an individual, and again, because it is a collective journey, it cannot be measured or viewed except as individuals and individual views will constantly differ. The difference will be in the ultimate understanding that the questions and the answers to the questions must eventually come from the same place.

Ohtsuka meijin also said ‘there is only training’.

oneya

[Gusei21]

This is just my experience so please take it with a grain of salt.
I have been doing seishan and chinto for 30 years plus. The more I do it the less I get it or the harder it becomes.
And I don't mean doing it in a vacuum. I am being constantly monitored, shaped and corrected.
There is always something wrong or something missing but it isn't in the sequence or basic movements.
The moves I know well at least most of the time as long as I don't have a senior moment.
But how to do them - that is the struggle.
i don't really remember being taught the kata moves differently. The last time Chinto and Seishan changed on me was when Shiteigata was created and thus Seishan and Chinto underwent minor modifications. But that was a one time event. I am not old enough to remember when Chinto was done in kokutsu dachi.
The only thing that changes is HOW I do the same movements. On the surface nothing seems to be changing but under the hood things are constantly being overhauled. I am not sure if I am making any sense.
I used to be able to do Seishan until last week. Then I got stuck with my Sensei for a week and now I can't do it anymore. Once again I am a fumbling idiot.
But the moves never changed. I was just doing them wrong.

[yabumi]

Nice post Gusei21, I'm in much the same mind.
I would never think of changing the kata either. It just doesn't occur to me.

There may come a time though when the person who you normally look to for guidance on the arrangement of your shorts in kata, is no longer there. At a time like this you may also find that your gonads seem to have grown larger than they once were and so you wonder... and after a while you remember, as Oneya noted, that the man himself said ‘there is only training’.

So what is left, except to carry on with the day to day journey of Wado until you find that you have changed and the kata has somehow magically stayed the same.