Renzoku waza

[Aslan]

Ben, I know grading syllabuses of JKF Wadokai (better) and WIKF. And I can compare.
My opinion is that tantodori and idori contains many original body movements of Wado (like in kihon kumite). Very useful not for demonstration, but for free fighting too.
And because in Japanese Wadokai these sections almost not practiced , it means that soon they will be lost forever. Unfortunately, our style of this will be a much poorer.

[Gusei21]

[quote="AslanIf I'll train for forty years only junzuki and get great results in this, can I say that I really have a high dan in Wado?
IMHO it would be nice to add to JKF wadokai syllabus such original and wonderfull things, as tantodori and idori. They are undeservedly forgotten.
This is my humble personal opinion)[/quote]

Alsan,

I can understand how you can come to your conclusion. On the surface it does seem ridiculous. So then the question is why? What is missing?
What is this junzuki thing and what are the basic assumptions?
First what I can say is that it is already assumed that you are physically fit. It is taken for granted.
Next the word waza needs to be fully comprehended in a martial arts context. Waza or technique is not just learning which foot goes where and which hand goes where. It has to do with an in depth study of body mechanics. Body mechanics that will determine whether you live or die in battle. And here is the great news. Waza can be taught. I can teach you how to be as fast or faster than me. Junzuki is the art of carrying your body to position X as fast as possible. How to carry your entire body as one is very difficult. But once you figure it out then you wil see that I am not all that fast and you will be as fast as me if not faster. And once you figure that out then you will know that you are not really relying on physical fitness per say. It will be like learning to ride a bicycle. Once you learn to ride a bicycle you don't forget. You can do it no matter how old you get. And that is why all these old farts can really move fast. They are not relying on their physical fitness. They are relying on waza. That is why Otsuka Sensei was fast in his 80's but when he walked down the street he was no different than any other old man. Suzuki Sensei was the same. Once he stepped onto the dojo floor he transformed. It is because of waza. The body has been trained over time to be an efficient machine, relying on correct body mechanics and not muscular strength.
If you have a technique that relies on muscular strength then for me that technique has no depth and is not interesting. I don't want to practice things like that. It is shallow and uninteresting. But when I see old people with physical ailments do kihon kumite effortlessly with speed and precision then I find myself on the edge of my seat because true waza is taking place.

As I write this I know I am wasting my time because the only people who agree with me are people who already take what I say for granted. It is one of these preaching to the choir things. If you disagree with me then that is because you don't understand. So once again I am just wasting my energy.....talk about mudana waza....lol...

As for tanto tori and idori...I find it pointless. No one knows how to teach it so why bother? The only idori footage that I know in existence of Otsuka Sensei is owned by Ohgami Sensei I believe. Otsuka Sensei never really taught it. All these old guys claim they learned it from him but from what I have seen all the movements are empty. There is nothing there. Just people apeing Otsuka Sensei's movement without understanding his body mechanics. So why bother? I'd rather focus my attention on the stuff he taught, on stuff that is approachable.
I asked Takagi Sensei about this some time ago. I asked why we never do idori or tanto tori. He told me that historically Otsuka Sensei did do tanto tori and idori but right now in JKF Wadokai we focus on karate and kihon kumite but he also said that Wadoryu is keeping idori and tanto tori alive.
(He did not mention Suzuki Sensei perhaps because he was only thinking about Japan. The phenomenon that is Suzuki Sensei is a European thing.)

I think we really need to call a spade a spade here. You really want to learn idori and tanto tori correctly? If you really want to learn what Otsuka Sensei was doing with his idori and tanto tori then Wado does not have the answer. Go study Shindo Yoshin ryu. Toby Threadgill's idori and tanto tori is much more closer to Otsuka Sensei than ANY idori and tanto tori I have ever seen done by a Wado person. Sensei Threadgill is going to do an idori/tanto tori seminar in Germany in April I believe. He is teaming up with Shuzo Imai, 8th dan DVK, 7th dan JKF Wadokai to do a weekend idori/tanto tori seminar. Imai Sensei will be teaching Wado techniques and Threadgill Sensei will focus just on idori and tanto tori. I am in no way connected to do with that event. Contact Christina Gutz for more information. I realize some people will go screaming to the Wadokai blaming me and trying to get me in trouble again saying I am singlehandlely destroying Wado in Europe. Funny. These idiots give me too much power. Everytime I post something some of you here send my posts to either Ohgami or Sakagami. People who do that are lame cowards...losers. But I really have nothing to do with that German event.
I think it is really too bad that Otsuka Sensei did not create a pedegogy for transmitting idori and tanto tori. But like Otsuka Sensei said in general, and I agree for myself that my karate is not good enough yet to focus on stuff like that.

[oneya]

Words words words...

If it were up to Takagi Sensei just doing junzuki would be enough to determine whether you can pass the dan or not. A few years ago for the 7th dan test the TC had eliminated junzuki. The only kihon today is tobikomizuki and nagashizuki. But Takagi Sensei on the day of the examination announced that he was adding junzuki because he said if you can't do junzuki then you should just go home now..... I realize opinions may differ on this. That is fine. I am just explaining the logic. Junzuki permeates into everything we do. If you can't do that then you should go home. And if you are still doing a shodan junzuki when you are going for godan then you should also go home. If you don't know the difference in quality of the two then find someone who can show you.....so goes the logic. I have a feeling Oneya could expand broadly on this subject :)

It was always words words words that were the problem Gusei, or rather the lack of ‘em in the birth pangs of the UK and European wado ryu melee.

I believe the multiple renraku (renzoku) waza syllabus was another legacy of the language difficulties from the sixties era. The inability to express one’s self in English on the one side and lack of any depth of knowledge into the complexities of either the wado ryu or any grasp of nihongo necessary to understand the core principles and governing dynamic at the heart of wado ryu on the other side. This made any depth in the cross cultural relationship a bridge too far. It was a tough road to travel and with many cross cultural rocks along the way it was a road that saw quite a few natives getting restless and leaving with their 'pinch of condiments' blueprint giving many people a thin wado gruel for their future.

Suzuki sensei was also one who thought junzuki was enough to judge the quality of a man’s wado understanding but his: “Do like this” dojo teaching along with the more physical developments like sanbon kumite and ohyo kumite and multiple technique heavy renraku waza were his answer to the linguistic swamp he was in. A swamp where junzuki morphed into a western punch while san mi ittai languished just beneath the ‘eureka’ surface so his developments were ‘necessity and invention’ driven. The problem with translation though: is its usual intent is to bring something foreign into one’s own understanding of ‘equivalent to’ and once 'grasped' any further need for clarification is often not deemed necessary and this is where the ‘junzuki = punch’ runs into difficulties with wado’s core principles and its governing dynamic when we consider that junzuki can also be practiced as keri-waza within kihon waza.

It doesn’t always look like it but I would suspect that JFK Wadokai honbu has its international shiai ethos based in Ohtsuka’s broader philosophy of brokering a collective harmony and its dan grade syllabus demonstrating an element of Shu Ha Ri. The Academy on the other side, while pursuing a more direct Ohtsuka meijin tradition so has the same ethos and ethic but also has this very different history and a different consciousness which requires a consideration of the very germane gaijin tradition and divided heritage to be Vital.

In the final analysis though, for students of either group there is no right or wrong in their practice, it is simply the same road with different eyes.

oneya.

[Aslan]

Unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity to attend the seminarof Mr.Threadgill. Yet.
But I have seen Mr. Suzuki's idori and Hakoichi's. I found tantodori a very useful thing for concentration and awareness in the fight.
And no most perfect waza will never replace the pairwork.
Such students of Suzuki sensei as Kono (RIP) and Sakagami (representatives of Wadokai) have tantodori in their grading syllabus.

[Gusei21]

Unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity to attend the seminarof Mr.Threadgill. Yet.
But I have seen Mr. Suzuki's idori and Hakoichi's. I found tantodori a very useful thing for concentration and awareness in the fight.
And no most perfect waza will never replace the pairwork.
Such students of Suzuki sensei as Kono (RIP) and Sakagami (representatives of Wadokai) have tantodori in their grading syllabus.

Hi Aslan,

It is very nice that you find tantotori a very useful thing. The question I raise is whether we are doing what Otsuka Sensei was doing.
Anyone can play with a knife and do offense/defense drills. But Otsuka Sensei was doing Shindo Yoshin ryu tanto and idori and that was what I was talking about.
I am not interested in doing just any tanto tori. I want to do what Otsuka Sensei was doing.

And yes, the most perfect waza as an end to itself is like having sex by yourself I think. It is always better with a partner from what my friends tell me.

And yes it makes sense to me that Sakagami being a student of Suzuki Sensei would be doing tanto tori. Mr Sakagami has been a representative of all major Wado groups at one time or another, most recently Wadokai.

[Aslan]

Unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity to attend the seminarof Mr.Threadgill. Yet.
But I have seen Mr. Suzuki's idori and Hakoichi's. I found tantodori a very useful thing for concentration and awareness in the fight.
And no most perfect waza will never replace the pairwork.
Such students of Suzuki sensei as Kono (RIP) and Sakagami (representatives of Wadokai) have tantodori in their grading syllabus.

Hi Aslan,

It is very nice that you find tantotori a very useful thing. The question I raise is whether we are doing what Otsuka Sensei was doing.
Anyone can play with a knife and do offense/defense drills. But Otsuka Sensei was doing Shindo Yoshin ryu tanto and idori and that was what I was talking about.
I am not interested in doing just any tanto tori. I want to do what Otsuka Sensei was doing.

And yes, the most perfect waza as an end to itself is like having sex by yourself I think. It is always better with a partner from what my friends tell me.

And yes it makes sense to me that Sakagami being a student of Suzuki Sensei would be doing tanto tori. Mr Sakagami has been a representative of all major Wado groups at one time or another, most recently Wadokai.

With all due respect to genius of Otsuka Sensei, I believe that his student Suzuki has earned the right to move on. And his renraku waza is a good proof of this.

Personally for me tantodori is advanced form of kihon kumite.

[blackcat]

Ben, I know grading syllabuses of JKF Wadokai (better) and WIKF. And I can compare.
My opinion is that tantodori and idori contains many original body movements of Wado (like in kihon kumite). Very useful not for demonstration, but for free fighting too.
And because in Japanese Wadokai these sections almost not practiced , it means that soon they will be lost forever. Unfortunately, our style of this will be a much poorer.

Hi Aslan

Do you train idori in your dojo? My experience is that people often struggle with the discomfort of the sieza position so the training value can become limited. But I think you are right to say it would be a shame for these techniques to be lost.

Ben

[Gusei21]

With all due respect to genius of Otsuka Sensei, I believe that his student Suzuki has earned the right to move on. And his renraku waza is a good proof of this.

Personally for me tantodori is advanced form of kihon kumite.

Hi Aslan,

Now that I see where you are coming from I understand why you say what you say.
You can't' go wrong following Suzuki Sensei.
We are a product of our experiences. So if your world is Suzuki then follow it.

[Aslan]

We are a product of our experiences. So if your world is Suzuki then follow it.

Ha-ha!))) I think I am not a man, for whom you take me for.))
I came from Russia))

[Gusei21]

We are a product of our experiences. So if your world is Suzuki then follow it.

Ha-ha!))) I think I am not a man, for whom you take me for.))
I came from Russia))

Hi Aslan,

I think something is getting lost in translation.
I have no idea what you mean.
It is very nice that you are from Russia.
It is also nice that you are a man.
I have no clue what sort of man you are except I am concluding that you admire Suzuki Sensei.
And Suzuki Sensei was a great Wado man so there is much to admire in him.
It doesn't matter to me if you are left handed or right handed or straight or gay or green or purple. Following Suzuki Sensei is a good thing.