Small details

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
wadoka
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Re: Small details

Post by wadoka »

I have just enabled another e-mail setting in this new software that I am still getting used to.

Give it another try please.
claas
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Re: Small details

Post by claas »

Hello,

Good to see that the discussion is up and running! When I think about details I always think about the topic "Questions and answers in budo". That's a huge topic. About the detail in question, I actually don't remember have I ever asked, but I believe I have never been told the answer, except for the answers given in this thread. Gary's and Tim's inquiry about me asking my sensei was essential, since I didn't present my aims for posting. I'll do it now... The aim was not so much in getting an answer but just wake up discussion about details, since I came to think about this, as I said.

My take on questions in general is a little mixed. Most of the times I want to appreciate the teaching event by simply doing my best. If I have too many questions on my mind, the probability that I just think about my own questions and become less receiving about the stuff that is more essential grows. If a student does many things correct but some detail done wrong becomes very apparent, the instructor usually corrects this. Then there really isn't so much of a need to ask questions at all.
At other times if I feel the timing for questions is not bad in the ways I just mentioned and I don't give the impression of wasting my instructors time, I ask as many questions as I can. In a way there is a quota for questions, so one should think twice before asking. (Maybe you buy more quota by doing your best in the training.)

As an instructor on the other hand, I answer when ever I both know the answer and answering serves the event and learning process. Many times it wouldn't, because if the point is in focusing on, let's say, three important things (which is always a very difficult thing to do), everyone forgets pretty much them all if someone asks a question and gets the answer. Then everyone only remembers some "minor detail" in relation to what's essential in their learning process. So questions are not always good. The bigger the class, maybe the more they do "harm".


When I read oneya's answer I noticed it to be very true, especially afterwards when I sat down and had my elbow on the hand support of my chair. Twisting my fist also puts the bone to protect the area in question since there is also the process of finding the spot, which then becomes more difficult.

But my thinking was more in line with wadoka's. Only the focus is not so much in the move in question, but more in the overall process from one move to another to a third and so on. So every move always end in where the next one begins. After these ones we have for example a kamae coming up or a shuto uke. So in both of them, I think we get a better starting point. In shuto uke (Kushanku) we get the twisting of the arm as a result without having to twist back and forth. In Pinan Yondan, Kushanku and Naihanchi for example, we have a kamae coming up after the move. The process reminds very much Pinan Nidan's 3rd move and for example Kihon Kumite 1 after the nagashi sotouke. So we do the moves more in line with other stuff and also more naturally and efficient.

In Niseishi one can also try out the events where you have your palm or your tettsui pointing against your ear, switch the way it is done and then maybe notice that the following move becomes more natural when we do how we are supposed to. (Of course we then must think critically, is this only because of how we are used to do? My hypothesis is it's not.)


And what I said about the importance of thought in the matter would be true, regarding the viewpoint of the following move, since just following the details gets one to do more naturally anyway. Here would be a good example why one shouldn't change the stuff one doesn't understand. Even without understanding, the details make the process better.

Do you think some of this would make sense?
Lasse Candé
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Re: Small details

Post by WadoAJ »

Hi Claas,

You have taken the time to write down some of your ideas. I can appreciate that. Just got back from the pub so perhaps not the best time to focus and reply, but there were some things that I could not follow. (this says more about me then about you I guess)
claas wrote:
So every move always end in where the next one begins.
I think this is the other way around?
claas wrote: After these ones we have for example a kamae coming up or a shuto uke. So in both of them, I think we get a better starting point. In shuto uke (Kushanku) we get the twisting of the arm as a result without having to twist back and forth. In Pinan Yondan, Kushanku and Naihanchi for example, we have a kamae coming up after the move. The process reminds very much Pinan Nidan's 3rd move and for example Kihon Kumite 1 after the nagashi sotouke. So we do the moves more in line with other stuff and also more naturally and efficient.

In Niseishi one can also try out the events where you have your palm or your tettsui pointing against your ear, switch the way it is done and then maybe notice that the following move becomes more natural when we do how we are supposed to. (Of course we then must think critically, is this only because of how we are used to do? My hypothesis is it's not.)

This part got my mind cracking because I can't really figure out what you are trying to say. .... I ended up talking about kamae but re-reading this was just a small part of your mentions. Could you summarize your mentions into "a principle" ? It is difficult to see what movement you are describing just by reading from paper.
claas wrote:Do you think some of this would make sense?
perhaps it will, but I am in need of an other explanation I guess. however..... a clear mind in the morning may be of my assistance as well.

ps: as for your notes in teaching, I don't know. In fact, from what I have read, perhaps you are making it too difficult for yourself. The methods to use in class, timing to switch methods, evaluation, room for self discovery and how you arrange your class is much more important. All details will fall into place naturally in the process. (I'm school teacher, I guess you are not aware of this, just adding this to note that I'm not "just" making it up)

For what its worth, I like your post anyway. Just had some mental troubles myself!

AJ
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claas
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Re: Small details

Post by claas »

Hi AJ,

Thanks for your positive feedback!

My main point is that while of course the way that the move itself is performed is important, when compiling (or arranging) a kata the compiler (arranger) has to think how to get from one technique to another. So every position is the starting point for the next move. I can't think of some one general principle, but natural, correct and effective movement are some things I feel one gains from how the katas are arranged.

When I alter the empis (or Niseishi's nagashiukes) by having my fist "the other way", the techniques after them feel strange and less effective. In Niseishi's follow-up gedanbarai and Kushanku's follow-up shuto uke I end up starting by first twisting the fist to the direction of how it is in the katas. So at least in these moves the way it is makes sense to me from this "follow-up-technique-viewpoint". How do you feel when you alter them?


Unfortunately I have trouble figuring out does this make my point clearer, since I feel I'm merely repeating myself. A problem in communication always that one cannot be certain of how the message is received.


The focus in teaching, of course, is in learning and training as efficiently as possible. Then to answer a question or not, or even further the way that the question might be answered, depends on the situation. "Answer every question" or "don't answer any question" shouldn't be dogma. The focus is in more important things while Q&A-handling is only on a tool-level. It still is definitely something to think about from the angle of the rhythm of the lesson for example.



Haven't anyone else thought about any other details?
Lasse Candé
Helsinki, Finland
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