Go Kan Ryu

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shep
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Re: Go Kan Ryu

Post by shep »

oneya
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Re: Go Kan Ryu

Post by oneya »

Wado heretic wrote:I have put him into our Goju sub group as GKR seems to use mostly Goju imitation kata. I am hoping being surrounded by people doing the same kata as him, but properly, will open his eyes. I can say he's definetely enthusiastic about his karate so I am hoping we can get him off the nonsense. When I explained that Hangetsu is basically Shotokan's version of Seisan and that Naihanchi and Sanchin are the core kata of karate, which GKR lacks apparentely, it seems to have set the cogs turning.
Hi wado heretic, Hangetsu is basically Shotokan's version of Seishan not seisan. I think you will find Sanchin has nothing to do with wado kata either.

oneya
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Re: Go Kan Ryu

Post by Wado heretic »

I don't wish to get into semantics but Seisan and Seishan are simply different pronunciations of the same name. Hangetsu and Seishan are variations of Aragaki no Seisan with apparent influences from the Higoanna no Seisan of Goju Ryu. It's a somewhat similar sitation to Passai and Bassai, where as Bassai has a literal meaning and is Japanese, Passai appears to be an old Okinawan family name.

I suppose not, unless we venture back into the Seisan quagmire, but to explain the mention of Sanchin in my explanation to the GKR guy. Sanchin is at the heart of Naha Te Karate in the same way Naihanchi is at the heart of Shuri Te Karate, a curriculum not incoporating either really isn't traditional karate. Apparentely GKR is such a system thus my stating of this.
R. Keith Williams
oneya
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Re: Go Kan Ryu

Post by oneya »

OK. of course you are right but I am wondering if ‘Wado Heretic’ and ‘oneya’ are not just variations of the same name ( i.e. homo sapiens) also. Is it not the differences between the two that provides the ability to identify one from the other?

oneya
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Re: Go Kan Ryu

Post by Wado heretic »

I wouldn't say what I stated previously is definative; simply my interpretation of the evidence I am aware of. If we look at the naming convention Ohtsuka Meijin elected to use, it appears he kept the Okinawan names with a Japanese pronunciation rather than using the Japanese names as created and used by Funakoshi Gichin. As we see in Seishan and Kushanku, when the original names are Seisan and Kusanku respectively.

Definetely the difference is useful as the use of Seishan is dominant in Wado Ryu where as you'll rarely find that pronunciation used in other systems with a version of Seisan.
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oneya
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Re: Go Kan Ryu

Post by oneya »

Wado heretic wrote:I wouldn't say what I stated previously is definative; simply my interpretation of the evidence I am aware of. If we look at the naming convention Ohtsuka Meijin elected to use, it appears he kept the Okinawan names with a Japanese pronunciation rather than using the Japanese names as created and used by Funakoshi Gichin. As we see in Seishan and Kushanku, when the original names are Seisan and Kusanku respectively.

Definetely the difference is useful as the use of Seishan is dominant in Wado Ryu where as you'll rarely find that pronunciation used in other systems with a version of Seisan.
Ah but it certainly sounded definitive and dismissive but of little consequence really. The only thing we can be assured of in one’s training is that which is absorbed in the dojo, even then we are placing a great deal of trust in the veracity of one’s instructor, e.g GKR, so only the best will do.

Some historical dates suggest that Ohtsuka meijin had already left Funakoshi prior to him changing some Sino/Okinawan terminology to something more acceptable to Japanese mores, surely this too is of no actual consequence in the study of wado fundamentals which is of primary importance.

oneya
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Re: Go Kan Ryu

Post by Wado heretic »

If we look at Funakoshi's 1922 book; Karate Jutsu, the Okinawan names are retained. Where as when we look at the later Karate Do Kyohan, written after Ohtsuka left Funakoshi, we see the first written use of the Japanese names of the kata. Suggesting that Ohtsuka did indeed simply retain the names as he was taught them.

Depends if we consider the renaming to be reflective of the transition of the kata from their Shuri roots into their modern Shotokan form with the infamous Japanese flavour. Karate Jutsu is a seminal peice of Karate literature; as within it pictures of Funakoshi performing the kata as he taught them. If we then compare them to the Kata of Wado Ryu and Shindo Jinen Ryu we can see how Ohtsuka refined his interpretation of the Kata.
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Re: Go Kan Ryu

Post by oneya »

If we look at Funakoshi's 1922 book; Karate Jutsu, the Okinawan names are retained. Where as when we look at the later Karate Do Kyohan, written after Ohtsuka left Funakoshi, we see the first written use of the Japanese names of the kata. Suggesting that Ohtsuka did indeed simply retain the names as he was taught them.
It would have been akin to throwing rocks in his own path for Ohtsuka meijin to follow Funakoshi’s lead in changing any terminology when he was also training with Choki Motobu who has been credited by some historians with influencing his Naihanchi and Kenwa Mabuni gets the credit for influencing his Pinan kata. I think the credit for Naihanchi may have been given without sufficient consideration or understanding of the range of his prior experience with SYR which has its own kata that Ohtsuka meijin would have been already been extremely familiar with. Along the same lines, I don’t think Ohtsuka meijin’s body of work has been developed in any piecemeal fashion but more importantly, if one is to grasp his future direction, one would need to look at the man and his philosophy.
Depends if we consider the renaming to be reflective of the transition of the kata from their Shuri roots into their modern Shotokan form with the infamous Japanese flavour. Karate Jutsu is a seminal peice of Karate literature; as within it pictures of Funakoshi performing the kata as he taught them. If we then compare them to the Kata of Wado Ryu and Shindo Jinen Ryu we can see how Ohtsuka refined his interpretation of the Kata
I am not sure what you mean by ‘infamous Japanese flavour’ in the kata, most of the changes in kata seemed to come from Gigo Funakoshi who had a different vision and intent from his father for karate’s uses. Even so I believe it is not really possible to compare the Wado ryu with Shotokan karate or Shindo Jinen Ryu because we must start from a different premise. I think it would be short sighted to think Ohtsuka meijin merely ‘refined’ his wado kata and a deeper study will show his philosophy again was responsible from moving away from the bunkai centric model to something that prepared for the future without losing sight of Japan’s past.

oneya
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Re: Go Kan Ryu

Post by Wado heretic »

We have now stumbled off very much into a tangeant but it's fun one. Update on the GKR guy; he's not terrible, I'd expect more from a 4th Kyu in our own club but he's holding his own and keeping up at the society sessions at least.

Having not witnessed the Kata of Shindo Yoshin Ryu I am not sure how to truly comment on whether Ohtsuka Meijin's prior knowledge of said Kata would have impacted his practice of Naihanchi. Considering that the version that now exists in Wado Ryu is distinct from the Tekki Kata of Shotokan and the modern Motobu Ryu version; the assumption has to be that indeed it did. Though that is superficial and questionable evidence at best; it is well known that Funakoshi Yoshitaka significantly modified Shotokan from the years 36-45, and that Motobu Chosei had severely limited time training under his father. Indeed; Tekki uses a stance distinctly different from Naihanchi dachi and features excessive movement you see in no other variation, and the modern Naihanchi Shodan of Motobu Ryu bears a distinct resemblence to the Naihanchi Shodan of Matsubayashi Ryu. As much as it can be argued that Ohtuska Meijin modifed Naihanchi greatly, which personally I believe he did, the evidence shows that it is just as likely that he simply maintained and taught Naihanchi as he was taught it.

Maybe unique would be a better word then infamous. I believe comparison is possible and useful; it allows us to get back to the different premise from which to start. Like a mirror it can give us insights into how the changes Ohtuska Meijin made really impact upon the Ura of Kata and not just the Omote. It depends if you interpret 'refined' as a criticism or a compliment. The man did not reinvent the wheel; Ohtuska Meijin did not create new Kata, simply modified what he had been taught along the lines of his own philosophy, and perhaps the influences of Motobu and Mabuni, to arrive at the Kata we have now. I would say it'd be more short sighted to not explore what these modifications were and the true impact they have. Yet exploring them really isn't neccessary; it makes more sense to use ones energy on simply training, doing the kata and the kihon and exploring them for their own sake. Yet when you can't train; why not do some comparison as home work. Evidence does show doing something related to your activity of choice helps improve performance after all.
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oneya
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Re: Go Kan Ryu

Post by oneya »

Yes topic drift seems to have gripped this one by the scruff so given the complexities of differing prisms and different filters plus incipient Déjà vu, I might just practice a little heresy and leave it here.

oneya
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