Wado, budo, self-defence.... What's it all about?

[acer]

once heard that in another karate club, they planned their training sessions by opening the grading syllabus booklet each day and choosing a random grade/list of techniques to practice. And that's all they did (of course this is only what I heard and not witnessed by myself). I get the feeling that this way of training is somewhat similar in your club Acer.

No..We train a lot in the syllabus and then we try to find ways how apply the principles against other attacks and different movements.Because we have experience in different styles the attacks are make just like the other styles fight and move (and not attacks only straight punches obviously)or complete free style attacks.

For instance, assuming that defending against straight punches is absurd ignores the fact that the "defender" isn't the only one training.

Right that’s why we must have other drills and other attacks too because other styles train and move different and if somehow confront someone that train in other styles than our he will attack us different etc etc...

Wado has a lot of principles and correct body movement is just one of them. Junzuki has about 10,000 dynamics; the ability to transfer power through the body core without muscular tension while moving forward and striking with correct timing and distance--in sanbon gumite, I'm not so sure who has the harder job!Adding anything to the syllabus is ignoring what the syllabus is trying to do. And assuming the syllabus is not realistic is ignoring centuries of koryu training.

I agree and it’s a great tool to learn to attack and defend in juntsuki no doubt..But what about defending the others that dont use junzuki? They don’t train in Wado or in Karate everyone so limit only in straight punches it’s a problem.

There's an awful lot of training up and down the dojo in kihon that doesn't make practical sense when compared to what might happen in a self-defense scenario, but that's also assuming self-defense scenarios can be trained in, defending against a hooking punch or somebody wrestling you to the ground or a gun in your face. Assuming that someone coming at you with junzuki, full force, is unrealistic ignores the Wado principles inherent in the syllabus.

Explain it more please...

but that's also assuming self-defense scenarios can be trained in, defending against a hooking punch or somebody wrestling you to the ground or a gun in your face.

You can take ideas and learn how other attacks are,how they move and handle.
I think its better than say we can’t trained in all scenarios so let’s forget all the others and train only in straight punches.

[oneya]

Wado's roots are in jujutsu. Sensei Otsuka's family style, Shindo Yoshin-ryu and Yoshin-ryu contain the kernel that became Wado, but I'm sure karate was an epiphany for Otsuka when he saw it. While many styles of jujutsu have atemi/striking, none were as sophisticated as the Okinawan punching and kicking.

HI Tesshu,

That's not the impression I get from accounts of karate in the 20s and 30s like the following:

The fact that Karate was still called "Karate-Jutsu" while Kendo and Judo were called with "Do" indicating the system. With a strong desire to develop the karate into one of the recognized martial arts by all means. Yasuhiro worked very hard to disseminate karate through the connections in the Jujitsu world. But the results were not satisfactory one. In the Kendo world, people who recognized karate like Hakudo Nakayama was a minority, and there was still a strong tendency to define karate a primitive art in which thrusting and kicking were representative arts. If someone remarked that karate was a kind of fencing without a sword, a lot kendo masters showed a fight against that kind of remarks. From the end of the 1920s, many people pointed out that not a few karate men lacked good manners and behavior. People who were in the Judo world denied unanimously the existence of karate, and there was even a movement in Kodo-kan which tried to introduce the karate into a part of Judo as a self-defense art. The reason why Gichin Funakoshi declined the frequent invitation to the Kodo-kan had a strong relationship with this.

Also the various schools of traditional martial arts didn't give any high evaluation of karate. "Essence of Japanese traditional martial arts was not to defeat the opponent completely, but to pin down or hold an outlaw asking him whether he would correct his conduct or not, and if not, arm or some parts of body would be dislocated, which meant a spirit of allowance to forgive the enemy was left even in the fight. "On the contrary", some of the traditional martial arts masters protested Yasuhiro saying that "karate stars abrupt thrusting or kicking. This is against the code of behavior for SAMURAI spirit." This kind of criticism was not so serious. But the more severe criticism generated by one of the martial arts experts was that forms of karate were not refined historically. This comment hit the weakest point of karate. Expert who made this comment was Morihei Ueshiba who developed Aiki-do later. This martial arts expert was standing unrivaled in the term of the strong and mysteriousness in Te beginning of Showa era together with the fact he mastered various martial arts such as Yagyu-Ryu, Hozoin-Ryu, Jyuken-Jutsu, and other traditional Japanese martial arts concentrating on Aiki-do Jujitsu of Daito-Ryu.

http://www.jkr.com/index.php?option=com ... &Itemid=53

My understanding is of "atemi" being seen as the more intrinsic sophisticated and complicated Japanese form of striking which needed a longer learning period so the lesser thought of annexed southern island of Okinawa's punching and kickings tode power force became the inclusive 'attack' that Ohtuska meijin designed his ultra Japanese "wado ryu" defence against. Prior to this though,Okinawan karate per se needed at least a decade long period of aura polishing and and linguistic modification before it was anywhere near acceptable to the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai for membership. How true this is and how many birds it killed with one stone I have no idea but it was the subject of dinner conversation one evening with Suzuki Tatsuo my sensei.

oneya

[Tim49]

The issue of whether what we do in the dojo and what is presented as the mainstream syllabus, should be geared towards or at least have a strong leaning to self defence and the subsequent subtext of being a fighter of immense skill against all scenarios, keeps on reoccurring.

We all have different views on what Wado is. I also believe that the question of what is karate is also a separate question that although has an overlap with the first question, it is not the same.

What should we be doing as a dojo in 2010+ is also another separate question, but also a very personally one.

Maybe all of the above could be distilled down to "My life in Wado, what's the point?"

To go back to Gordon’s original question (I’m getting the impression he’s frustrated with the topic drift).

I really do doubt that for people who have been training in Wado for a long time, the reason they started training is not the same reason they continue training. What caused this shift and how sudden it was is open to debate, and I suppose it varies from individual to individual. My theory is that it is a kind of development in maturity. For anyone who starts out wanting to be the Ultimate Warrior realises over time that it’s a comic book dream (maybe some people don’t, and end up switching to MMA).

The self defence reason also fizzles away. Anyone with experience in random violence will tell you that it frequently chaotic, unpredictable, sometimes sudden, sometimes with a fear and intimidation preamble, ill-disciplined, ugly and probably most importantly, psychologically crushing and paralysis-inducing. That last one; you can have all the defences against hooks you want but if you haven’t got the tools to mentally switch on you will lose. Now despite desperate attempts by so-called Reality Based Self Defence instructors to create some kind of scenarios to induce that level of pressure it is impossible to teach to most people to really ‘switch on’, without some major mental reprogramming, of the kind you would find in the fantasy world of the Manchurian Candidate.

But really I think that the ability for someone to come out of those situations unscathed must come from the high road not the low road. Taking the low road and living in a perpetual state of hyped up anxiety and constantly firing up your adrenal glands will kill you over time, but then there are faster ways of meeting your end – like stepping out into traffic.

Oh God, I hope I haven't triggered off another pointless self defence debate......backing out from this one quickly.

Tim

[oneya]

`
Way to go Tim - and for my part in this topic drift - my apologies Gordon.

It is probably a question that can never fully be answered but:

There was a moment in my life when my eldest son phoned me asking what had happened to the first black belt I had ever owned. He is practicing Iaido and lives 1000 miles away. The obi in question, which was too frail for continual use, lay in my training bag. I wrapped and sent it to him accompanied with a letter saying. “This old bit of rag, which was carefully fashioned into an obi about four decades ago in some sweat shop in the Ichigaya district of Tokyo Japan, came to me after a long period of endeavour and learning. It has no magic of its own but its condition holds an important truth. This truth is that after long periods of endeavour your wado will train your physical body to endure but beyond this it will elevate your mind to a point where it will sustain the inevitable human frailties with its own resilient and unwavering spirit. This is the most important reason that flows from a life of wado training.

The feel of the obi around my belly never leaves me, just as the feel of the sea where I sailed for many long years never leaves me. The obi’s softness belies its strength just as the softness of the sea belies its strength. Both the softness and the strength are there when necessary. Perhaps this is the way a man should be, perhaps this is the lesson. It is something I am still struggling with after so many years. I too am still trying to learn the lesson of life, still trying to find a balance among all the issues, responsibilities and judgments that a man must make some sense from it. I feel balance is the issue in life. I know of some men who wonder why others struggle with the issues, wonder what the struggle is all about, they ask what is the struggle for, perhaps it is indeed a needless struggle, but I find it difficult to walk in another’s footsteps.
Someone recently asked me if there were any other styles of karate besides wado that I thought were of any merit, and my immediate answer was: “It is never the style that makes the man, it is the man that makes the style.” So perhaps the obi just needs someone to wear it just as the sea needs someone to sail over it? Perhaps they are both some of the little things that make up a life, they’re nothing special. Otsuka sensei used to say, when asked after so many (84) years of training about the ‘secret’ of karate. “The secret of karate is that there are no secrets, there is only training.” Perhaps this is the case with life’s struggle… perhaps there is just life… and you just have to do it… not struggle with it or contemplate its meaning… just do it… like wado where the lessons are absorbed by the doing… and all the contemplation and intellectualizing is just heaping more dung on the dung pile.”

oneya

[WadoAJ]

I really do doubt that for people who have been training in Wado for a long time, the reason they started training is not the same reason they continue training.

Tim

My primary reason.. Jean Claude van Damme wannabe. I have to admit, he is my Hero still.

AJ

[shep]

`
Way to go Tim - and for my part in this topic drift - my apologies Gordon.

It is probably a question that can never fully be answered but:

There was a moment in my life when my eldest son phoned me asking what had happened to the first black belt I had ever owned. He is practicing Iaido and lives 1000 miles away. The obi in question, which was too frail for continual use, lay in my training bag. I wrapped and sent it to him accompanied with a letter saying. “This old bit of rag, which was carefully fashioned into an obi about four decades ago in some sweat shop in the Ichigaya district of Tokyo Japan, came to me after a long period of endeavour and learning. It has no magic of its own but its condition holds an important truth. This truth is that after long periods of endeavour your wado will train your physical body to endure but beyond this it will elevate your mind to a point where it will sustain the inevitable human frailties with its own resilient and unwavering spirit. This is the most important reason that flows from a life of wado training.

The feel of the obi around my belly never leaves me, just as the feel of the sea where I sailed for many long years never leaves me. The obi’s softness belies its strength just as the softness of the sea belies its strength. Both the softness and the strength are there when necessary. Perhaps this is the way a man should be, perhaps this is the lesson. It is something I am still struggling with after so many years. I too am still trying to learn the lesson of life, still trying to find a balance among all the issues, responsibilities and judgments that a man must make some sense from it. I feel balance is the issue in life. I know of some men who wonder why others struggle with the issues, wonder what the struggle is all about, they ask what is the struggle for, perhaps it is indeed a needless struggle, but I find it difficult to walk in another’s footsteps.
Someone recently asked me if there were any other styles of karate besides wado that I thought were of any merit, and my immediate answer was: “It is never the style that makes the man, it is the man that makes the style.” So perhaps the obi just needs someone to wear it just as the sea needs someone to sail over it? Perhaps they are both some of the little things that make up a life, they’re nothing special. Otsuka sensei used to say, when asked after so many (84) years of training about the ‘secret’ of karate. “The secret of karate is that there are no secrets, there is only training.” Perhaps this is the case with life’s struggle… perhaps there is just life… and you just have to do it… not struggle with it or contemplate its meaning… just do it… like wado where the lessons are absorbed by the doing… and all the contemplation and intellectualizing is just heaping more dung on the dung pile.”

oneya

Pure poetry oneya. I like it

shep

[go rin no sho]

Oneya,

"I feel balance is the issue in life"

I think this is very true.

GRNS

[acer]

The self defence reason also fizzles away. Anyone with experience in random violence will tell you that it frequently chaotic, unpredictable, sometimes sudden, sometimes with a fear and intimidation preamble, ill-disciplined, ugly and probably most importantly, psychologically crushing and paralysis-inducing. That last one; you can have all the defences against hooks you want but if you haven’t got the tools to mentally switch on you will lose

Imagine dealing with all that and only training against straight punches...Suicide!!!!!!

Now despite desperate attempts by so-called Reality Based Self Defence instructors to create some kind of scenarios to induce that level of pressure it is impossible to teach to most people to really ‘switch on’, without some major mental reprogramming

Imagine if you train only against straight punches then...

Taking the low road and living in a perpetual state of hyped up anxiety and constantly firing up your adrenal glands will kill you over time,

There are so many articles about that and so many practitioners of internal martial arts that based on that and claim why their way of training is superior and better for the human body than the other systems (they including karate as the other systems too as we all know)

The psychology in a real fight is very important no doubt...But really,how in Wado you learn to ''switch on''?

[oneya]

Maybe the psychology in wado ryu is to switch off.

oneya

[Tim49]

Maybe the psychology in wado ryu is to switch off.

oneya

Amen to that Oneya.

Tim