Wado, budo, self-defence.... What's it all about?

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
wadoka
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Wado, budo, self-defence.... What's it all about?

Post by wadoka »

The issue of whether what we do in the dojo and what is presented as the mainstream syllabus, should be geared towards or at least have a strong leaning to self defence and the subsequent subtext of being a fighter of immense skill against all scenarios, keeps on reoccurring.

We all have different views on what Wado is. I also believe that the question of what is karate is also a separate question that although has an overlap with the first question, it is not the same.

What should we be doing as a dojo in 2010+ is also another separate question, but also a very personally one.

Maybe all of the above could be distilled down to "My life in Wado, what's the point?"
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Re: Wado, budo, self-defence.... What's it all about?

Post by wadoka »

I might as well start by attempting to answer my own question. This is my personal take as opposed to any organisational doctrine or dogma.

Where someone takes the viewpoint that their karate is somewhat "real" and that they are doing karate as budo does annoy me. My retort would be to ask why are they doing karate in the first place.

If people really want to learn self defence and that was their only or primary focus, then again, why do karate?

To want to attains the skills to counter Thai boxers, Kyokushinkai fighters, MMA and Brazillian jujitsu players in some common, but mythical scenario of mutual testing of ego and skills, that I guess must be under some mythically agreed set of rules as well, is just plain machismo and has nothing to do with self defence.

For these scenarios, why bother putting on a gi. I am sure if you defined the outcomes required, the time you have or want to attain a certain level within, and what rules are involved, yes rules, then you may be able to fashion something that will work. I suspect that this will work for someone already possessing many of the skills required in the first place.

A 12 week course in self defence. Things like that are just plain nuts. They gratify the people holding the course and temporarily give the participants a sense of achievement.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure most of use can retell first or secondhand stories of karate people getting stuck in when needed, female kyu grade students kicking assailants in the groin with their new found karate skills and so on.

If people want self defence to be a primary outcome for their students, why waste their time with karate as we generally know it. Why waste the most part of their two one hour long sessions per week with all the surrounding package?

Wanting to learn self defence must be pretty much an immediate need. To offer the knowledge of self defence can't be a multi-year process. What is self defence to a 14 stone alpha male compared to the self defence requirements of a 7 stone female teenager?

I've rambled as usual but will stop here as there will plenty of opportunity to carry on and this is enough as a starting point for me.

To close, the reason why I get annoyed when discussions turn to "in my dojo we do karate for real" is that I fear that you may end up with a nice dojo full for very capable like minded students, but I fear for those that could have had their own personal relevations on a relative level, but that level was not good enough for the instructor's own requirement.
acer
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Re: Wado, budo, self-defence.... What's it all about?

Post by acer »

I m continue from here then,
D'you think the double leg take down is a modern technique in a country the gave us Jujutsu, Judo, Aikido, Sumo and wado ryu??.
Of course not!That’s why is a good question why we don’t practice against something so much familiar
The answer practice only against straight punches and somehow you will know how to defend against it doesn’t cover me...

....it should be about how to bring out our nobler human qualities, and the first step on doing that is to know yourself, and the finest crucible for such an undertaking is the Dojo.
Right...You could try to speak about philosophy human qualities , know yourself against a burglar for example that try to kill and maybe it works I don’t know!Don’t get me wrong,I m totally with you about DO.I just approach it differently.For me you must first pass from ''Jutsu'' and then you will go to ''Do''....
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Re: Wado, budo, self-defence.... What's it all about?

Post by Tim49 »

acer wrote:Right...You could try to speak about philosophy human qualities , know yourself against a burglar for example that try to kill and maybe it works I don’t know!Don’t get me wrong,I m totally with you about DO.I just approach it differently.For me you must first pass from ''Jutsu'' and then you will go to ''Do''....
I’m sure I am reading this wrong Acer but you sound to me like you are living in a perpetual state of fear, now it’s burglars in the house. Man, I would just find the biggest heaviest (or sharpest) thing in the house and hit them with, or I could just set my wife on them.

But…but, in the UK when the police come round to arrest you for what you’ve done to said burglar (a) make sure it doesn’t look premeditated and (b) tell them that you were in genuine fear of your life.

Personally I don’t carry round with me a whole bundle of anxieties and insecurities, I lock my door at night and I run a mental risk assessment when I’m out and about. If something happens it happens. As everyone else has been saying, self-defence is Dinky Toys compared to learning Wado.

Jutsu/Do, do you really think it’s that simple? Westerners have picked up this idea and run with it. It leaves me shaking my head when it is used as a stick to beat modern Budo. Ohtsuka Sensei’s book alludes to this semantic over-simplification.

Tim
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Re: Wado, budo, self-defence.... What's it all about?

Post by acer »

I’m sure I am reading this wrong Acer but you sound to me like you are living in a perpetual state of fear, now it’s burglars in the house. Man, I would just find the biggest heaviest (or sharpest) thing in the house and hit them with, or I could just set my wife on them.

But…but, in the UK when the police come round to arrest you for what you’ve done to said burglar (a) make sure it doesn’t look premeditated and (b) tell them that you were in genuine fear of your life.

Personally I don’t carry round with me a whole bundle of anxieties and insecurities, I lock my door at night and I run a mental risk assessment when I’m out and about. If something happens it happens. As everyone else has been saying, self-defence is Dinky Toys compared to learning Wado.

Jutsu/Do, do you really think it’s that simple? Westerners have picked up this idea and run with it. It leaves me shaking my head when it is used as a stick to beat modern Budo. Ohtsuka Sensei’s book alludes to this semantic over-simplification.
There just examples and not to take them literally but you don’t want to understand on purpose.Ok fine with me.If you think only the straight punches train...covers you then who m I to change your opinion?
I only wish you never find the truth in a bad way if you know what I mean...
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Re: Wado, budo, self-defence.... What's it all about?

Post by Tim49 »

acer wrote: There just examples and not to take them literally but you don’t want to understand on purpose.Ok fine with me.If you think only the straight punches train...covers you then who m I to change your opinion?
I only wish you never find the truth in a bad way if you know what I mean...
Acer
I think you are mistaking my posts for someone else’s posts, I’m not the one who said I only train straight punches or against straight punches, I assure you I don’t.

I am not trying to deliberately misunderstand you; it just seems to me that you are rather fond of generalising then picking out examples that don’t really add up. (the burglar being a prime candidate). You also generalise about how other people in Wadoland train, how do you know, what have you seen? I hope you aren’t basing all your judgements of what happens beyond your borders on what you see on Youtube.
Tim
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Re: Wado, budo, self-defence.... What's it all about?

Post by Tim49 »

acer wrote: I only wish you never find the truth in a bad way if you know what I mean...
Ah, sorry, I missed this bit.
There you go again making assumptions, based on what exactly?
You and I have never met, you know nothing about me, my experience, my life and yet you assume to tell me that you are the holder of a truth that I don't have. You are going to have to explain to me how that works.

Tim
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Re: Wado, budo, self-defence.... What's it all about?

Post by wadoka »

I will let you in on a secret There have been times when I been shocked out of my sleep by a vivid dream of being chased by a group knife wielding skinheads. I've never been in that situation or even close to it so unsure where this even comes from.

Forget this talk of straight punches or not. There is also the next level and the level after that.

Should I put my gi on and forever practice 3 man jiyu tanto randori? Nah.
acer
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Re: Wado, budo, self-defence.... What's it all about?

Post by acer »

think you are mistaking my posts for someone else’s posts, I’m not the one who said I only train straight punches or against straight punches, I assure you I don’t.
That’s great Tim!good for you!
But tell me something,where and how you learn to attack and defend against hook punches,low kicks with the shin,takedowns with maybe little ground fighting too(just in case something goes wrong and you find yourself on the ground)if none of those techniques exist as basic training,meaning drills explain step by step how the body mechanics of those moves work in Wado syllabus?
You just take them from other arts maybe?
Or you just ''imagine'' how those moves are applying in a fight?
If you only imagine then its is safe practice if you don’t have a clue how this things actually work?
And if you take them from other arts why I m so wrong if I believe that we must add few basic drills of that kind in our syllabus to study them correctly so that we stop ''looking'' and ''search'' outside?
You also generalise about how other people in Wadoland train, how do you know, what have you seen? I hope you aren’t basing all your judgements of what happens beyond your borders on what you see on Youtube.
If someone speaks about Bjj then you take a look on BJJ syllabus and not on Thai or Tai Chi Chuan syllabus just because 2-3 teachers train in Thai and Tai Chi and they have add few techniques in their train...
We speak about Wado,so we look on Wado syllabus and Wado syllabus doesn’t have any of that you like it or not...
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Re: Wado, budo, self-defence.... What's it all about?

Post by Tim49 »

acer wrote:
think you are mistaking my posts for someone else’s posts, I’m not the one who said I only train straight punches or against straight punches, I assure you I don’t.
That’s great Tim!good for you!
But tell me something,where and how you learn to attack and defend against hook punches,low kicks with the shin,takedowns with maybe little ground fighting too(just in case something goes wrong and you find yourself on the ground)if none of those techniques exist as basic training,meaning drills explain step by step how the body mechanics of those moves work in Wado syllabus?
You just take them from other arts maybe?
Or you just ''imagine'' how those moves are applying in a fight?
If you only imagine then its is safe practice if you don’t have a clue how this things actually work?
And if you take them from other arts why I m so wrong if I believe that we must add few basic drills of that kind in our syllabus to study them correctly so that we stop ''looking'' and ''search'' outside?
You also generalise about how other people in Wadoland train, how do you know, what have you seen? I hope you aren’t basing all your judgements of what happens beyond your borders on what you see on Youtube.
If someone speaks about Bjj then you take a look on BJJ syllabus and not on Thai or Tai Chi Chuan syllabus just because 2-3 teachers train in Thai and Tai Chi and they have add few techniques in their train...
We speak about Wado,so we look on Wado syllabus and Wado syllabus doesn’t have any of that you like it or not...
You know Acer, I’ve spelled it out, I’ve explained as well as I am able. I am sorry that what I am saying is not crossing the language barrier. We have gone round in circles.

Honestly the stuff you describe is not a worry to me.

There are people out there who are extremely good kickers, much better than me, there are Judo guys who I am sure could tie me in knots, do I lay awake at night worrying about it? No. I reckon I have more anxiety about crossing the road. To be honest I have bigger fish to fry.

If you feel straight jacketed by the syllabus you work under that is a pity, but I’m guessing the rest of us don’t feel that way. If Wado doesn’t suit you then shop around, there must be lots of people out there who are doing it all.

I reckon I’ll spend some time giving some thoughts to Gordon’s posting.

Tim
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