Wado, budo, self-defence.... What's it all about?

[oneya]

`
No doubt about it Tim, as I said a moment ago:

It is a matter of prisms: so given the benefit of some thought: wado ryu with its extensive koryu history and lineage presents more as a paradigm shift in martial development, rather than a poor relation’s jigsaw lacking a few missing bits of a neighbouring system of self defense from a beleaguered agrarian community.

but I should have added it is also a matter of blinkers and blindfolds.

oneya

[Wado heretic]

Not assuming any idolising; I said as much as an observation of the potential dangers that exist in the martial arts. People invest a lot of money and time so for some the idea of cross training or exploring outside their own heterodoxy can be a difficult idea to get their head around. Rather my major point is; it's too easy to assume Ohtsuka made his final choices fully informed of the Okinawan karate tradition; when the simpler answer is that he imposed jujutsu concepts upon karate, as those were simply what he was comfortable with and had confidence in.

Possibly one of the reasons; he did study under Mabuni and Motobu so would have been exposed to the idea of direct kata application. However I'd be more inclined to believe Ohtsuka was simply more comfortable with the Shindo Yoshin Bujutsu approach, as he had trained in Honshu Koryu arts for three decades by the time he started training under Motobu and Mabuni, if the commonly given date of 1927 for his starting training under them is to be believed.

Actually evidence does exist to show he was training on an almost daily basis alongside Mabuni, Konishi and Ueshiba at the Ryobu-Kan in the years 1927-1928 and almost as late as 1935. However, the evidence given from various sources is occasionally conflicting when it comes to the dates. Though most agree that Ohtsuka trained under and alongside such luminaries at some time, I concede though that it is debateable how much time they spent together, and in many ways whether it truly had a lasting impact beyond introduing Ohtsuka to new concepts.

We are probably placing a eurocentric view with a historical bias upon this complex issue, unavoidably though as neither of us are Japanese nor were we there. Over all; I'd rather credit Ohtsuka Meijin as a genius but with gaps in his knowledge. Isn't it more sensible to argue that he took what he learnt from Funakoshi, Mabuni and Motobu and adapted it according to his existing knowledge of Koryu bujutsu to create Wado Ryu; than to say he rejected Okinawan Karate concepts based on a highly informed opinion and replaced them with what he felt were superior principles?

[AshleyBarai]

Hi All,

...I worry that this post may seem out of place now but at the risk of being accused of changing the subject...

Whilst I have been following this thread (sometimes in horror) I am grateful to some of the true insights and explanations that 'at times' have been put forward.

But... I have been mulling on Wadoka's original post.

Maybe all of the above could be distilled down to "My life in Wado, what's the point?"

'

So, my answer has been the same for many year. For me, it is about fulfilling my own personal potential. I don't mind if I am not 'as good' at others at Wado, or any other element of my life. It is just that when I look back on my life I want to be proud of what I have done and certain that I have become all I can be. Wado offers me many opportunities both physically and mentally to satisfy this goal. It may or may not be perfect but it works for me.

I was introduced to a poem many years ago that I often return to as it does rather sum it up for me:

Victory - A poem by Herbert Kauffman

You are the Man who used to boast
that you’d achieve the uttermost,
some day.

You merely wished to show,
to demonstrate how much you know
and prove the distance you can go.

Another year we’ve just passed through.
What new ideas came to you?
How many big things did you do?

Time left twelve fresh months in your care
how many of them did you share
with opportunity and dare
again where you so often missed?

We do not find you on the list of makers good.
explain the fact!
Ah No, ‘Twas not the chance you lacked!
As Usual - you just failed to act.



Thanks

Steve

[Tim49]

Not assuming any idolising; I said as much as an observation of the potential dangers that exist in the martial arts. People invest a lot of money and time so for some the idea of cross training or exploring outside their own heterodoxy can be a difficult idea to get their head around. Rather my major point is; it's too easy to assume Ohtsuka made his final choices fully informed of the Okinawan karate tradition; when the simpler answer is that he imposed jujutsu concepts upon karate, as those were simply what he was comfortable with and had confidence in.

Possibly one of the reasons; he did study under Mabuni and Motobu so would have been exposed to the idea of direct kata application. However I'd be more inclined to believe Ohtsuka was simply more comfortable with the Shindo Yoshin Bujutsu approach, as he had trained in Honshu Koryu arts for three decades by the time he started training under Motobu and Mabuni, if the commonly given date of 1927 for his starting training under them is to be believed.

Actually evidence does exist to show he was training on an almost daily basis alongside Mabuni, Konishi and Ueshiba at the Ryobu-Kan in the years 1927-1928 and almost as late as 1935. However, the evidence given from various sources is occasionally conflicting when it comes to the dates. Though most agree that Ohtsuka trained under and alongside such luminaries at some time, I concede though that it is debateable how much time they spent together, and in many ways whether it truly had a lasting impact beyond introduing Ohtsuka to new concepts.

We are probably placing a eurocentric view with a historical bias upon this complex issue, unavoidably though as neither of us are Japanese nor were we there. Over all; I'd rather credit Ohtsuka Meijin as a genius but with gaps in his knowledge. Isn't it more sensible to argue that he took what he learnt from Funakoshi, Mabuni and Motobu and adapted it according to his existing knowledge of Koryu bujutsu to create Wado Ryu; than to say he rejected Okinawan Karate concepts based on a highly informed opinion and replaced them with what he felt were superior principles?

Hi Wado Heretic,
Right, I see what you are saying.
Can you supply me with the sources that Ohtsuka Sensei trained with Ueshiba, I am genuinely curious about this, not trying to catch you out.
I know Konishi did, and Ueshiba even influenced the design of a kata devised by Konishi and still on the Ryobukai syllabus, but I have come across no reference to a Dojo contact between Ohtsuka and Ueshiba, although I suspect they had met at the various big events, but that’s not training together.

I see what you are saying about Okinawan karate and I would be the last one to say that he just chucked everything away. I believe that he used the framework and adapted it to his own needs and personal design, which were primarily Japanese Budo based. I think there were some elements that crossed the divide but from my experience of Okinawan methodology I don’t see them as anything but minor players in the piece. H. Ohtsuka II pretty much confirmed it to me when over a restaurant table I asked him the question directly, that was when (translated through another senior Japanese Sensei) he came out with his ‘pinch of salt’ quote.

Tim

[majin29]

This is a terrific thread! Very edifying. :)

[Tesshu]

The issue of whether what we do in the dojo and what is presented as the mainstream syllabus, should be geared towards or at least have a strong leaning to self defence and the subsequent subtext of being a fighter of immense skill against all scenarios, keeps on reoccurring.

I think this issue is the product of beginner's level knowledge of Wado or maybe just too much thinking and theory. For instance, assuming that defending against straight punches is absurd ignores the fact that the "defender" isn't the only one training. Wado has a lot of principles and correct body movement is just one of them. Junzuki has about 10,000 dynamics; the ability to transfer power through the body core without muscular tension while moving forward and striking with correct timing and distance--in sanbon gumite, I'm not so sure who has the harder job! Adding anything to the syllabus is ignoring what the syllabus is trying to do. And assuming the syllabus is not realistic is ignoring centuries of koryu training.
Wado's roots are in jujutsu. Sensei Otsuka's family style, Shindo Yoshin-ryu and Yoshin-ryu contain the kernel that became Wado, but I'm sure karate was an epiphany for Otsuka when he saw it. While many styles of jujutsu have atemi/striking, none were as sophisticated as the Okinawan punching and kicking. Samurai just kind of clubbed each other when they didn't have a blade to kill someone with (this is a generalization, I realize), but imagine adding karate to your jujutsu. Better self-defense possibilities for a new age. So Wado already had a basis in realistic self-defense. Its antecedents assumed someone was trying to kill you, probably with a weapon, maybe while sitting with some geisha. I believe this attitude exists in Wado's syllabus-- a koryu mindset that is influenced by other modern Do forms like Kendo and Judo. There's an awful lot of training up and down the dojo in kihon that doesn't make practical sense when compared to what might happen in a self-defense scenario, but that's also assuming self-defense scenarios can be trained in, defending against a hooking punch or somebody wrestling you to the ground or a gun in your face. Assuming that someone coming at you with junzuki, full force, is unrealistic ignores the Wado principles inherent in the syllabus.
Ahhh, I'm running out of time to make a concise point (too many children poopin' and peein' here at home). I do Wado now because it's My Way. Not enough time to make a different choice now.

[Wado heretic]

The third person sources I refer to is the book by Konishi Yasuhiro Kyoshi: 'Karatedo: Ryukyu Karate no sentatsusha-tachi' and John Steven's: 'Invincible Warrior.' Both mention in passing the creation of Seiryu/Aoyagi kata during 1935 and that during this time Konishi Yasuhiro, Ueshiba Morihei, Mabuni Kenwa, and Ohtsuka Hironori were training together almost daily at the Ryobu kai. Supposedly Ohtsuka and Ueshiba had been friends since 1919 (maybe as early as 1917) while Ohtsuka was studying at university and exploring the different Ryuha of Tokyo. I am doubtful Ueshiba taught Ohtsuka anything, after all Ohtsuka was Ueshiba's elder and an equally experianced martial artist by this time. However I would be surprised if they didn't influence each other, as it can be argued Wado Ryu and Aikido have similarities in certain principles if not the same visual expression of said principles. I shall keep on trying to find some online resources to better illustrate the point.

I can't beat anything that has come straight from the horses mouth really. :p From what I have seen of H. Ohtsuka's expression of Wado Ryu then the pinch of salt remark is hitting the nail on the head really. I see little in the way of Okinawan methodolgy in his Wado Ryu; in some ways a positive but in others potentially a negative. When I see his kumite I do get the impression of it being Kenpo Jujutsu, not karate. If I was to use videos to illustrate;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHUh4SLE ... re=related

I personally would criticise his Uchi Uke as being too large in their movement, his gedan barai too far out to cover the groin or center line effectively and his Jodan uke as too rigid thus leaving much of the body exposed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EbtX0aNbU8

Yet then he can do stuff like that, which is beyond my level. So though I might consider his basics flawed if looked at via the okinawan perception; his technical skill remains excellent. So the point I am trying to make is; it might be true of his version of Wado Ryu and if you follow his branch of the tree then it is possibly true of your expression. Yet it must be conceded Wado Ryu is different depending on branch; Sazuki Sensei did his differently for example and no one would claim he didn't do Wado Ryu.

[Tim49]

The third person sources I refer to is the book by Konishi Yasuhiro Kyoshi: 'Karatedo: Ryukyu Karate no sentatsusha-tachi' and John Steven's: 'Invincible Warrior.' Both mention in passing the creation of Seiryu/Aoyagi kata during 1935 and that during this time Konishi Yasuhiro, Ueshiba Morihei, Mabuni Kenwa, and Ohtsuka Hironori were training together almost daily at the Ryobu kai. Supposedly Ohtsuka and Ueshiba had been friends since 1919 (maybe as early as 1917) while Ohtsuka was studying at university and exploring the different Ryuha of Tokyo. I am doubtful Ueshiba taught Ohtsuka anything, after all Ohtsuka was Ueshiba's elder and an equally experianced martial artist by this time. However I would be surprised if they didn't influence each other, as it can be argued Wado Ryu and Aikido have similarities in certain principles if not the same visual expression of said principles. I shall keep on trying to find some online resources to better illustrate the point.

I can't beat anything that has come straight from the horses mouth really. :p From what I have seen of H. Ohtsuka's expression of Wado Ryu then the pinch of salt remark is hitting the nail on the head really. I see little in the way of Okinawan methodolgy in his Wado Ryu; in some ways a positive but in others potentially a negative. When I see his kumite I do get the impression of it being Kenpo Jujutsu, not karate. If I was to use videos to illustrate;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHUh4SLE ... re=related

I personally would criticise his Uchi Uke as being too large in their movement, his gedan barai too far out to cover the groin or center line effectively and his Jodan uke as too rigid thus leaving much of the body exposed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EbtX0aNbU8

Yet then he can do stuff like that, which is beyond my level. So though I might consider his basics flawed if looked at via the okinawan perception; his technical skill remains excellent. So the point I am trying to make is; it might be true of his version of Wado Ryu and if you follow his branch of the tree then it is possibly true of your expression. Yet it must be conceded Wado Ryu is different depending on branch; Sazuki Sensei did his differently for example and no one would claim he didn't do Wado Ryu.

WH,
You have me really puzzled now.

Can you give me a page number for the mention of Ohtsuka in the Stevens book Invincible Warrior? I have this book and quite few others on Aikido. I would have remembered a reference to Ohtsuka, maybe I missed it.

Do you have a source where I can get the Konishi book from?

Also I must ask, how could Ueshiba be friends with Ohtsuka during the years you mentioned? Ueshiba was pioneering in far North Shirataki in Hokkaido from 1912 to late 1919. After 1919 he went to live in Ayabe when he joined Deguchi’s cult, this kept him a long way from Tokyo.

You say Ohtsuka was Ueshiba’s elder. Ueshiba was born in 1883, Ohtsuka born in 1892, you are going to have to explain that one.

I was also really surprised by your comments on the Youtube videos. Personally when I see that I am looking at something completely different, you seem to be seeing it as a choreographed fight move. I must admit that personally for the operation of gedan barai I wouldn’t be standing there in that position (key words ‘the operation’) but if I was trying to draw another emphasis out of my movement I would do exactly that. Same applies to the other so-called blocks.

Tim

[Wado heretic]

I am working from memory on that one, I'll try and find it because I am sure I read it in an Aikido book and that is the only one I own. Worst case scenario is I read it in one the books I got out from a library.

I honestly don't on the Konishi book, I was introduced to the reference by a Japanese exchange student at my University whom brought it up when we were discussing karate. I'll look for an internet resource and if that doesn't help I'll ask and see if I can scan the page some time. Be forewarned; it is in Japanese so finding a translation may be a pain. He claims there are only two pages referencing Ohtsuka, pages 58 and 59.

I must be remembering the dates incorrectly, I have read both 1917 and 1919 as dates for the year they met but neither seems possible or probable considering what Ueshiba was up to at that time according to other sources. Considering many sources don't mention a meeting as early as that between the two men, it can be said to be up to speculation.

That one was simply a case of me going off memory and getting it wrong. That was a poor exercise in debating to go off memory and make an assertion based on it.

Ofcourse you wouldn't use said movements in that stance; nor should they be seen as blocks, rather covering movements or deflections. However I do see them as fighting moves, as that is fundementally what they are. My comments are based on the fact you can't always dodge perfectly, and covering movements are intended to act as a barrier for your more sensitive areas if you do fail to dodge fully. If the covering movement is not efficient or strong it is of no use. That is my interpretation from visual information though, so it is under informed at best.

[wadoka]

Thanks Steve on answering one of the original questions :-)

A typical lesson in our dojo is not always pretty typical, bar the stretching and kihon.

Sometimes the pads come out and we hook away, sometimes mitts come out and we get all sporty, sometimes people don't spend a single second paired up, sometimes the lesson doesn't contain any recognisable syllabus techniques and looks more like a breakdancing night.

I just don't have the time to do it all. If self defence were to be a real consideration or need then it deserves more time surely.

The reason why I haven't been posting much lately, but enjoying proceedings, is of work pressures. My life in Wado has given me many things and I firmly believe that it has given me the resilience to face many scenarios.