Bag?

[karateman7]

Not sure if this is supposed to be posted in this forum or Non-Gen, but I figured it applies to Wado training.

I remember from the previous forum that makiwara is good for condition and bag for foot speed (but not necessarily wado).

I'm getting rid of my bag for something that will fit in my living room. I was thinking about a standing bag (Wavemaster?) or a reflex bag.

What are your opinions on the benefits of using one over the other?

[WadoAJ]

Hi Karateman7,

I'm not sure if I understand the use of your word "conditioning". Makiwara is in the first place to hone proper technique. striking air has its benefits compared to makiwara practise, but the same is for the benefits of makiwara which can't be practiced sufficiently when merely striking air.

as for conditioning, my sensei used to say that by doing makiwara practice your kihon will change. In the first place he was talking about technique. in the second place, he used to explain that by doing karate "you get karate muscle". In other words (my words) by using tools such as the makiwara, proper muscles tend to develop (or perhaps I should say tend to develop properly). You need karate muscle to exectute proper technique. the muscles, bones, and ligaments all develop due to contacting the makiwara or pads etc. If you refer to that as conditioning I guess it is fine.

To think of conditioning for getting bigger knuckles or not hurting your feet when kicking a bag is something else...

AJ

edit: to answer your question,

I practice makiwara and we also use pads, bags, weights and elastic ropes. All have their own benefit I guess

[monkey mind]

I used to have a wavemaster. I wouldn't recommend it if you're going to be striking with any power at all. The bag tends to scoot across the room when you hit it hard & it just felt kind of flimsy to me. If you want something for very light training, focusing on targeting or smooth combinations, then I guess a wavemaster would be ok. But don't think of it as a replacement for a proper bag.

[claas]

Hi,

I like to punch all kinds of stuff, but mostly I feel the best training is when the resistance is not too big. I feel the training is good, when I punch the object and the object isn't "punching" me. So I mostly prefer softer bags over harder.

If you take this thinking to the extreme I recommend an exercise ball supported against the wall.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_ball
When the resistance starts low and gradually rises as your fist goes in deeper, one has more control over relaxing the shoulders and allowing the whole body punch. You only go as deep as you can handle. Punching an exercise ball isn't too macho, but you can feel the effectiveness very soon in the right places.

Then afterwards one can do some testing with a harder punching bag, how hard it is possible to punch and not get affected of being "punched", in the spirit of Newton's third law of motion.

Whenever I train with objects my main focus is in maintaining a good posture and relaxing my shoulder, in a supported way. You don't always have to hit hard for good training, I think. Also hitting with smaller power in many cases allows more repetition.

An exercise ball is also good for training ipponken.

[metalfury]

An interesting article that compares bag use and makiwara.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/ ... -makiwara/

I believe that makiwara practice as taught by the Japanese actually makes your punches get weaker – not stronger....

The makiwara is not like a heavy bag. It increases its resistance little by little with each millimeter that it travels backward as you push your fist into it. The farther back it goes, the more it will push back. If I am using only my strength to push it back, then it will only push back with equal force to my strength, and I should be able to hold it in place. But if I hit the makiwara with my weight and my strength, then it will push back even harder. . .

I stopped using my makiwara, and now, I no longer own one. I now prefer the heavy bag, since the resistance can be precisely controlled, and it does not increase exponentially as I punch it more strongly. The heavy bag is softer, more forgiving, and better supportive of long-term use. Most importantly, the heavy bag rewards me for hitting it correctly, and it punishes me for hitting it incorrectly. The makiwara does just the opposite. The makiwara fools me into thinking that tensing on impact makes my punches stronger by punishing truly stronger punches. The makiwara rewards weakness.

I quite like training with focus mitts and kick pads, I think it helps geing able to visualise the person being there for working on correct mia. I've seen the BOBs that are a bit like the wavemaster, but like Monkey_Mind below I wasn't convinced that it wouldn't end up half way accross the room.

This might be a fun option though:

[karateman7]

I believe that makiwara practice as taught by the Japanese actually makes your punches get weaker – not stronger....

I highly doubt he'd like to offer his body in a scientific experiment/

This might be a fun option though:

[/quote]


Hm, I wonder what I would be considered if I put a picture of myself on :)


Thanks for the articles. I've seen it before. I remember Mr. Kazutaka Otsuka advocated for punching bags over makiwara in an interview. Interesting to see the evolution of karate with new developments in sports.

[claas]

I have never hit a traditional-style makiwara, but as some of you may noticed, I used the same reasoning for why I like the exercise ball, as the writer on 24fightingchickens used for advicing against a makiwara. Something that hits back immediately, like a bag, easily encourages one to work too much with the upper body.

One thing that I don't understand is why put these things against each other?

BOB is very good for accuracy and also as mental training. Training that really coaches one to be able to punch a human face is not simple. Pretty much every way of practicing it has some synthetic elements, so the effective way would probably be to use many approaches and mentally really aim towards the underlying goal while using them. This kind of mental training and how it associates with our training on the way of peace and harmony is also one interesting topic.

[monkey mind]

BOB is a bit beefier than the standard wavemaster, but it too will flex and move around the floor.

[Gary]

This might be a fun option though:

Hmmm,

I do worry about you sometimes metalfury lol.

Gary

[oneya]

Hi,

I like to punch all kinds of stuff, but mostly I feel the best training is when the resistance is not too big. I feel the training is good, when I punch the object and the object isn't "punching" me. So I mostly prefer softer bags over harder.

If you take this thinking to the extreme I recommend an exercise ball supported against the wall.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_ball

Hi claas,

If I take this thinking to the extreme - I may have to arrange opponents that are soft and don't fight back.?

I think we have a problem here with Newton's 3rd law of physics - "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction" - which is a fact of life. Evading or avoiding the problem will not solve the problem so we have in wado ryu a concept & training method method called nuki that (depending on the study) will go some way towards solving the problem of the reaction to a punch or kick. Using a makiwara is training to understand what happens from the fist backwards - not from the fist forward.

oneya