Bag?

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
oneya
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Re: Bag?

Post by oneya »

karateman7 wrote:

I remember Mr. Kazutaka Otsuka advocated for punching bags over makiwara in an interview. Interesting to see the evolution of karate with new developments in sports.

Evolution or Devolution...?

oneya
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Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
claas
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:39 pm

Re: Bag?

Post by claas »

Hi oneya,
oneya wrote: If I take this thinking to the extreme - I may have to arrange opponents that are soft and don't fight back.?
That is probably some other thinking. Of course I was only talking about analysing and training a punch.

I think we have a problem here with Newton's 3rd law of physics - "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction" - which is a fact of life.
This I already mentioned. One idea of studying a punch is how to become an object between the ground and the opponent. Punching bags that are too hard and heavy for one's skill level, encourages to do something else in fact, just for protection of the arm. One such a thing that is common is to let the impact affect one's shoulder. So when punching a too big resistance one has to choose between not punching hard, breaking the arm or compromising the technique.

Training by failure until success might work, but I like to both succeed and fail. The failure gives the needed feedback and the actual training happens when you succeed and move forward to more difficult tasks.
I would advice on punching different kinds of objects.


I'm not disagreeing here at all and believe we rather share views. Actually I only think what I wrote was terribly misunderstood, judging by the comments on soft opponents that don't fight back and Newton's third law, which I mentioned myself. I'll try to be more clear from now on. Unfortunately I know I'm not so good at it. :)
Lasse Candé
Helsinki, Finland
claas
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Re: Bag?

Post by claas »

karateman7 wrote:I remember Mr. Kazutaka Otsuka advocated for punching bags over makiwara in an interview. Interesting to see the evolution of karate with new developments in sports.

I believe this is the interview in question:

http://balam.karate.do.free.fr/pdf/versionuk.pdf
What is your opinion about the practise of makihura and the work of pushing yourself to be
stronger?

Kazutaka Otsuka : Makihura? I did a lot when I was student, at the university. Once I was doing it,
I lost a piece of skin. I saw the bone inside and there was blood everywhere. I do not like so much: I
do not think that it is still adapted. Nowadays there are good exercise tools, like punching ball for
example, which are better than makihura, to my mind.
Lasse Candé
Helsinki, Finland
karateman7
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:28 pm
Location: US

Re: Bag?

Post by karateman7 »

oneya wrote:
karateman7 wrote:

I remember Mr. Kazutaka Otsuka advocated for punching bags over makiwara in an interview. Interesting to see the evolution of karate with new developments in sports.

Evolution or Devolution...?

oneya
I was actually going to start a thread on a topic like this. Since wado is always changing, how much change, if any, do we base on the new findings of the human body (i.e. stretching, effects that pounding on hard surfaces have on our knuckles, etc).

But I couldn't think of any ideas that benefited the concept of "no wasted motion" besides the ones we already have (usually the laws of phsyics?).

In response to evolution and devolution, I really don't know. I'd like to know why or how he came to that conclusion.
Sergio Phillipe
oneya
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Location: Mornington Victoria Australia

Re: Bag?

Post by oneya »

claas wrote:
karateman7 wrote:I remember Mr. Kazutaka Otsuka advocated for punching bags over makiwara in an interview. Interesting to see the evolution of karate with new developments in sports.

I believe this is the interview in question:

http://balam.karate.do.free.fr/pdf/versionuk.pdf
What is your opinion about the practise of makihura and the work of pushing yourself to be
stronger?

Kazutaka Otsuka : Makihura? I did a lot when I was student, at the university. Once I was doing it,
I lost a piece of skin. I saw the bone inside and there was blood everywhere. I do not like so much: I
do not think that it is still adapted. Nowadays there are good exercise tools, like punching ball for
example, which are better than makihura, to my mind.

I think this says more about Ohtsuka Kazutaka than it does about the value of makiwara training. While I found makiwara training arduous it made me more aware of mistakes in attitude and correct technique a lot quicker. The onus was then on me to tighten up to my weaknesses.I knew going in that the possibility of wear and tear from hitting a makiwara was a pretty much going to be a matter of time but that was acceptable because it was a striking art anyway.

On the makiwara versus Bag work, a heavy bag had too much give in the surface which meant the tissue between my knuckles became bruised and caused a break in my training and ye I could have used so called focus mitts but this was pre Bruce Lee and yellow cat suits so they hadn't yet become available.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
oneya
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Location: Mornington Victoria Australia

Re: Bag?

Post by oneya »

karateman7 wrote:
oneya wrote:
karateman7 wrote:

I remember Mr. Kazutaka Otsuka advocated for punching bags over makiwara in an interview. Interesting to see the evolution of karate with new developments in sports.

Evolution or Devolution...?

oneya
Since wado is always changing, how much change, if any, do we base on the new findings of the human body (i.e. stretching, effects that pounding on hard surfaces have on our knuckles, etc).


In response to evolution and devolution, I really don't know. I'd like to know why or how he came to that conclusion.
Hi karateman 7... When you say

"how much change, if any, do we base on the new findings of the human body."

I have to think that the way that Ohtska meijin practiced gave him a full life until he was 90 years of age and my sensei has overcome Cancer and some pretty drastic surgery by sheer willpower and has reached 83 years of age also. So in terms of health and longevity I'd say they had their Wado ryu just about right and that is the lesson that I have learned so far.

In my opinion most other influences - often most western influences, one of which is commercialism when in the hands of the unscrupulous, can be the white ant of the martial ethic which tends to soften the effort at the expense of the art or what could be termed the devolution of the art.

oneya
Reg Kear.
Wado Kokusai San no Ya.

http://www.sannoya.com
wadoka
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Re: Bag?

Post by wadoka »

Whether to be hung up on change or to 'just keep going' and take a 'whole of life' approach? The two examples given show what is more important, to me anyway.

As regards new findings, the current thinking for me is that it is not really about finding out 'new' biomechanics and so on. More about discovering what is either already there, or overcoming what inhibits us from attaining the movement that the seniors achieve. Things like nutrition, safer practice and recovery are important things but we build up so much within ourselves that stops us progressing. The other thread about 'reactive' speed is interesting as it points in the direction of allowing something to happen more naturally than predetermined thought.
karateman7
Posts: 74
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Location: US

Re: Bag?

Post by karateman7 »

Oneya and wakoka--Thanks. That's a lot of food for thought that I'll be munching on. Unless we discover that we somehow have the ability to become perfect wadoka by pressing newly discovered pressure points, it's more important to train what we know and overcome what inhibits us.
Sergio Phillipe
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