All Wado Karate Forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=820m9FxqdNY

WIKF Chief Instructor
Jon Wicks,8th Dan...
Thoughts?

The uke has very little knowledge of how to use a sword properly, how to do reiho with a nihonto or wear a hakama properly.

He cuts and thrusts with his shoulders instead of his hips and has some serious "telegraphic" movements.
He needs more training in JSA before doing an embu again IMHO.

His ukemi was good, but that is to be expected from Wado-ryu karateka.

acer wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=820m9FxqdNY

WIKF Chief Instructor
Jon Wicks,8th Dan...
Thoughts?

As always, the poster should at least give some of their thoughts when making the first post. Not saying you are doing this, but avoids trolling and any other motive.

acer wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=820m9FxqdNY

WIKF Chief Instructor
Jon Wicks,8th Dan...
Thoughts?

Difficult to comment, but from what I could make out I would have to say that it does not appear to be to my personal taste.

I put it this way because firstly we are dealing with a Youtube clip (none of us were there), secondly what we are seeing is perhaps only representative of a part of what the practitioner has to offer and maybe there was a particular point he was trying to make. Thirdly; because I am not fully aware of the context of the clip or the impact of the match in skills between Uke and Tori.

So even with that I am perhaps being hasty in saying that ‘it does not appear to be to my personal taste’.

I am sure that there will be people on this forum for who this demo will tick all the boxes – that’s fine.

Tim

I quite liked it. It ticked many (but not all) the boxes for me. I've never trained with Sensei Wicks but I understand he is an excellent sensei and technician and I liked his technique here. I kind of agree with kogusoku regarding uke, he did look a bit amateurish . However I can be more forgiving because I'm certainly no expert and being karateka first and foremost wielding a sword or bokken is not my forte. Maybe with more practice and instruction he (and I) will get better.

shep

It seems like the WIKF are making an effort to retain the knife and sword defence as part of their training which I think is to be applauded. On a couple of occasions I joined Suzuki's seminars and there were all manner of weapons being wielded ranging from iaito to shinai and bokken as well as a few broomstick handles too, all so people could have a try of these techniques.

Suzuki himself was very good with sword from what I saw (and from what little I know about swinging swords). I've a film of one session where the whole class were swinging pieces of wood around in a manner which made me cringe let alone any proficient swordsman and it got too much for him so he lined everyone up and went through sword swinging practice. He had apparently learned to swing the bokken as a youth during the war years (I think it became compulsory practice by 1945).

Otsuka only did these techniques with people who were good with a sword - Kojima, Iwasaki, Ishizuka. More recently (well, 5 or 6 years ago) Hakoishi demonstrated these with Sasaaki, himself a high graded kendoka and wado karateka and when Sasaaki was unable to continue with him, he sent his senior student off to learn some iaido so he could continue to practise.

I've asked two seniors the question 'why do them'? Answer came back on both occasions as 1)timing, 2)distance and 3)concentration. Neither mentioned learning defence against the sword. Both recognised that these techniques will disappear in time.

Ben

blackcat wrote: Both recognised that these techniques will disappear in time.

Ben

I think it would be a shame if that ever happened. I think it adds a different perspective to timing, irimi, maai, tai sabaki - in fact all those things we train for. I enjoy training in these techniques. Its not something we do very often, it tends to be 6 months before a grading we practice them a lot along with Idori, tanto dori etc But even then Tachi Dori is the poor relation, the bit tacked on at the end.

shep

shep wrote:

blackcat wrote: Both recognised that these techniques will disappear in time.

Ben

I think it would be a shame if that ever happened. shep

I agree but I think it is inevitable. Training these techniques with a partner who doesn't know how to use a sword is near enough a waste of time.

There's a film of Pattinson and Otsuka in America, Pattinson or one of his students is clumsily swinging a broom handle and Otsuka manages to dodge it but it looks nothing like what you've seen him do even as an old fellow with his son.

This is what it is supposed to be like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... PuA#t=493s (go to 8.10 if the link doesnt take you straight there)

I am not sure anyone has ever followed that? Whereas kata, kihon gumite, basics..perhaps some of the senior students have reached or even exceeded Otsuka's ability (just off to order myself a bullet proof vest for writing that...).

Ben

Kogusoku wrote:The uke has very little knowledge of how to use a sword properly, how to do reiho with a nihonto or wear a hakama properly.

He cuts and thrusts with his shoulders instead of his hips and has some serious "telegraphic" movements.
He needs more training in JSA before doing an embu again IMHO.

His ukemi was good, but that is to be expected from Wado-ryu karateka.

Not sure how I would look today being an uke.
I almost killed Ajari once because I swung properly.
I refused to do it ever again after that experience. His response to me at the time was 'this is an embu...what the hell are you thinking..'
What did I know. I thought I was suppose to genuinely attack and it was up to him to get out of my way but instead I could have gone to jail.

When we do an embu I believe there should be an authenticity to it. Otherwise we should not do it, especially if we have high ranks.
Doing a bad tachi tori is an insult to swordsman. It makes Wado look bad. And no, I am not commenting on the video that was posted.
Mr Wicks now has a huge responsibility on his shoulders. I wish him all the best.

Further thought on this subject of tachi tori.

I remember a conversation I had with Teruo Hayashi, the deceased head of Hayashi ha Shitoryu.
I used to spend a lot of time with him and that group. Hayashi Sensei said that his defense against weapons was real.
He took pride in the fact that his stuff was not make believe or staged. He said that every time he did an embu he went up with the realization that death could be a possible outcome and he said not to do embu unless you were prepared to die and that was his Budo.
He also told me that Otsuka Sensei praised him once after he had done an embu with Otsuka Sensei in the audience.
Otsuka Sensei told him that his goal should be to continue doing it to the point that he could still do it when he got to Otsuka Sensei's age...not sure how old Otsuka Sensei was when he complimented Hayashi.

The point is that if you do an embu like this there must be a sincerity in the attack otherwise it is no different than a Broadway show... ( I think I might have just insulted the Broadway afficionados..sorry.). You don't play in an embu whether it be kihon kumite, kata, tanto tori or tachi tori.
Otherwise it is a joke. If you are not willing to die then don't do it. That was Hayashi Sensei' message. And by the way, Hayashi Sensei added that Otsuka Sensei's tachi tori was real in that there was sincerity in the attack.