Kote Gaeshi

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
wadoka
Site Admin
Posts: 696
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:38 am
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, UK.
Contact:

Kote Gaeshi

Post by wadoka »

A question was asked in another thread about when something like kote gaeshi would come into the training timeline.

For those that watch the TV programme called "QI" you will know what I mean if the bells start ringing should you answer "Kihon Kumite 5".

To profer something to start discussions off, I have shown beginners with less than 6 months under the belt an approach to kote gaeshi and let them play with it, slowly. The first opportunity is normally if I see people's thumbs sticking out or hands prime for manipulation. Part of me also wants to get across that it isn't all about punching and kicking early on in their process.
Gary
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:14 pm
Location: South London, UK
Contact:

Re: Kote Gaeshi

Post by Gary »

wadoka wrote:A question was asked in another thread about when something like kote gaeshi would come into the training timeline.

For those that watch the TV programme called "QI" you will know what I mean if the bells start ringing should you answer "Kihon Kumite 5".

To profer something to start discussions off, I have shown beginners with less than 6 months under the belt an approach to kote gaeshi and let them play with it, slowly. The first opportunity is normally if I see people's thumbs sticking out or hands prime for manipulation. Part of me also wants to get across that it isn't all about punching and kicking early on in their process.
Hi Wadoka,

I’ll often throw it in early (if you forgive the pun), particularly if I want to demonstrate a point in terms of the human body and how it works and moves (or doesn’t in some cases).

It is also good to demonstrate how easy it is to break someone’s balance/structure. I like to use the “third point of the tripod” analogy, where you push the fingers of the person being thrown toward the point on the floor where the third foot of the tripod would stand (the other two feet being theirs of course).

It is a very simple yet graphic way to demonstrate the process and as you say, demonstrate that it is more than just kicking and punching.

Gary
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

清漣館双水執流英国稽古会
http://seirenkanuk.wordpress.com/
WadoAJ
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Gorinchem, Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Kote Gaeshi

Post by WadoAJ »

Gary wrote:
wadoka wrote:A question was asked in another thread about when something like kote gaeshi would come into the training timeline.

For those that watch the TV programme called "QI" you will know what I mean if the bells start ringing should you answer "Kihon Kumite 5".

To profer something to start discussions off, I have shown beginners with less than 6 months under the belt an approach to kote gaeshi and let them play with it, slowly. The first opportunity is normally if I see people's thumbs sticking out or hands prime for manipulation. Part of me also wants to get across that it isn't all about punching and kicking early on in their process.

Hi Wadoka,

I’ll often throw it in early, particularly if I want to demonstrate a point in terms of the human body and how it works and moves (or doesn’t in some cases).
It is also good to demonstrate how easy it is to break someone’s balance. I like to use the “third point of the tripod” analogy, where you push the fingers of the person being thrown toward the point on the floor that would where the third foot the tripod would stand (the other two feet being theirs of course).

It is a very simple yet graphic way to demonstrate the process and as you say, demonstrate that it is more than just kicking and punching.

Gary
Hi Gary,

what you are referring to is often called "sankaku" meaning triangle. I always talk about a barchair with 3 'legs'. I wonder why I always tend to talk about a bar.. I must have been watching too much Bas Rutten selfdefense videos.. anyway, sankaku is also used for some shime waza. I think for the execution of kote gaeshi sankaku is not always neccesary. In combination it could serve well as an example though.

AJ
AJ van Dijk

President & Chief Instructor Wadokai Holland
General Secretary FEW Federation European Wadokai
http://www.WadokaiOnline.com - Wado Books // Wado DVDs
http://www.wadokai.nl
http://www.fewkarate.com
Gary
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:14 pm
Location: South London, UK
Contact:

Re: Kote Gaeshi

Post by Gary »

WadoAJ wrote:what you are referring to is often called "sankaku" meaning triangle. I always talk about a barchair with 3 'legs'. I wonder why I always tend to talk about a bar.. I must have been watching too much Bas Rutten selfdefense videos.. anyway, sankaku is also used for some shime waza. I think for the execution of kote gaeshi sankaku is not always neccesary. In combination it could serve well as an example though.

AJ
Hi AJ,

Maybe we can do some more talking in the bar after the seminar lol.

Yes - the method I was describing was more of the "Irimi" - linear or entering version rather than the "Kaiten" - rotational version, which I would demontsrate a little later on maybe.

Gary
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

清漣館双水執流英国稽古会
http://seirenkanuk.wordpress.com/
Gary
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:14 pm
Location: South London, UK
Contact:

Re: Kote Gaeshi

Post by Gary »

As an aside,

I don't know if anyone has a copy of Roberto Danubio's DVDs, but he has included Kote Gaeshi in one of his Ippon Kumite drills.

My point is that clearly, Roberto feels that it is important to include this practice fairly early on also, albeit on a fairly basic level.

Gary
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

清漣館双水執流英国稽古会
http://seirenkanuk.wordpress.com/
WadoAJ
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Gorinchem, Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Kote Gaeshi

Post by WadoAJ »

Gary wrote:
WadoAJ wrote:what you are referring to is often called "sankaku" meaning triangle. I always talk about a barchair with 3 'legs'. I wonder why I always tend to talk about a bar.. I must have been watching too much Bas Rutten selfdefense videos.. anyway, sankaku is also used for some shime waza. I think for the execution of kote gaeshi sankaku is not always neccesary. In combination it could serve well as an example though.

AJ
Hi AJ,

Maybe we can do some more talking in the bar after the seminar lol.

Yes - the method I was describing was more of the "Irimi" - linear or entering version rather than the "Kaiten" - rotational version, which I would demontsrate a little later on maybe.

Gary
I usually teach kote gaeshi from some goshin jutsu and later on from a punch or kick. One of the tanto dori that we practise a lot is kote nage dori which also involves kote gaeshi. This tanto dori is relatively easy and can be practised on a lower level. Of course, the more difficult dynamic comes much later, but it is a waste not to start practising already. I must say that my 3rd and 2nd kyu students can do that kata quite well for their level. Anyway, from that movement there is "room" for some henka waza and for them to experiment themselves to find out how it works. The time of omote kata is about 80%, the rest is henka or some self discovery. I'm not sure that will fit in the light of all koryu, but considering my experiences as a highschool teacher this has a better effect then skipping the henka and selfdiscovery. I'm sure my experiences or from a teaching point of view is debatable though.

AJ

ps: indeed, perhaps we can go to the pub afterwards. I guess I'm not driving, my students is... however, we intend to go home saturday night. But.. maybe we are not and will stay for 2 nights. It all depends on time and schedule of the farry etc..
AJ van Dijk

President & Chief Instructor Wadokai Holland
General Secretary FEW Federation European Wadokai
http://www.WadokaiOnline.com - Wado Books // Wado DVDs
http://www.wadokai.nl
http://www.fewkarate.com
Gary
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:14 pm
Location: South London, UK
Contact:

Re: Kote Gaeshi

Post by Gary »

Be good to catch up AJ, how many years ago did we last train together?

Gary
Gary Needham
Walton Wado Karate Club

清漣館双水執流英国稽古会
http://seirenkanuk.wordpress.com/
WadoAJ
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Gorinchem, Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Kote Gaeshi

Post by WadoAJ »

Gary wrote:Be good to catch up AJ, how many years ago did we last train together?

Gary
i remember that clearly Gary. It was just before my sensei passed away in August 2008.

AJ
Last edited by WadoAJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
AJ van Dijk

President & Chief Instructor Wadokai Holland
General Secretary FEW Federation European Wadokai
http://www.WadokaiOnline.com - Wado Books // Wado DVDs
http://www.wadokai.nl
http://www.fewkarate.com
oneya
Posts: 857
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:31 pm
Location: Mornington Victoria Australia

Re: Kote Gaeshi

Post by oneya »

wadoka wrote:A question was asked in another thread about when something like kote gaeshi would come into the training timeline.

For those that watch the TV programme called "QI" you will know what I mean if the bells start ringing should you answer "Kihon Kumite 5".

To profer something to start discussions off, I have shown beginners with less than 6 months under the belt an approach to kote gaeshi and let them play with it, slowly. The first opportunity is normally if I see people's thumbs sticking out or hands prime for manipulation. Part of me also wants to get across that it isn't all about punching and kicking early on in their process.
Nice QI link up wadoka,

and you're right: Kihon Kumite gohonme kata is where we come face to face with kote gaeshi as a complete technique that might feature in bunkai somewhere but this presupposes we have already been taught its component parts, yet it is not mentioned in any syllabus and doesn't appear to be codified as far as I know, which is quite unlike the repetitious hammering of techniques we have like junzuki, gyakuzuki or the tsukomi and keri waza in the wado ryu kihon methodology.

One would think that a technique involving studies in the effects on Uke’s body being more complex and requires a degree of efficiency much higher in the skill range as kote gaeshi obviously does, it would surely need to commence its practices much earlier than KK #5 or so it appears. Kote gaeshi, being a technique that requires a deeper knowledge of irimi and kuzushi than the thrusting and kicking basics borrowed from its Okinawan roots, seems to have escaped the notice of the founder it its preparatory stages, that is until we study its nine basic Okinawan kata a little deeper where it appears Ohtsuka sensei, in changing the emphasis in favour of specific wado ryu theory of movement rather than bunkai, also structured it so that it also includes the building blocks and sections of the elementary structure of kote gaeshi within the bounty of the Pinan kata series, but, as always, you need new eyes again.


oneya

http://www.sannoya.com
WadoAJ
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:16 pm
Location: Gorinchem, Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Kote Gaeshi

Post by WadoAJ »

as oneya speaks of the new eyes, I always remember what my sensei used to say. It has come up on the old AKF that people compare the journey to climbing up a mountain. Then 'we' said what about when you reach the top? There is no end to training. In my opinion only death interferes with the process.

ANyway, my sensei used to say that behind each hill, lies another hill. It is a never ending landscape of hills until you die. Perhaps after each hill you need a new pair of eyes..

In the dojo similar can be experienced. Sometimes your karate might feel very good. and a year later it doesn't feel good. In my opinion this is because your new eyes are seeing different things than that your old eyes used to see. You karate is probably better then one year ago, but you can see the need for improvement with your new eyes. I guess it is a never ending story.. My experience though.\

AJ
AJ van Dijk

President & Chief Instructor Wadokai Holland
General Secretary FEW Federation European Wadokai
http://www.WadokaiOnline.com - Wado Books // Wado DVDs
http://www.wadokai.nl
http://www.fewkarate.com
Locked