Kids

[kyudo]

winning or losing can be determined if you use a method that allows to do so.

Good point. Thanks.
Sometimes things aren't complicated at all...

[oneya]

by the way Gary,

this concept hardly exists in our Dojo. If a kind of "game" comes a long once in a while it is not winner stays on. It is loser does 10 push ups, 15 abs, 20 squads..

AJ

Hi Aj,

I am surprised at this method of awards In wado ryu where we are advocating physical action to teach - amongst other things - a way to self determination and self discipline and self discovery so why would we use physical action as a punishment for losing..?

The joy in the ability to perform Press ups, squats or kata or kihon etc are surely our raison d'etre for all being there ??

Similarly, the loser stays on - not the winner- this seems more sensible because they need more practice..???

oneya

[Tim49]

I can see what you are saying Oneya. I’ve often wondered about this myself.

Perhaps there is a whole new thread on exercise as punishment, but it might be interesting to follow this discussion: http://www.enotes.com/soc/discuss/why-e ... ment-70573

I have a contest drill we use in our Dojo where the ‘loser’ stays on and has to deal with a second (or third) opponent until they achieve the stated objective. The penalty for failure is that this obviously becomes an issue of stamina and starts to become more taxing. So there is an obvious incentive in achieving the goal. Classic carrot and stick.

Endurance work exercises the will and promotes a spirit of determination. In a lively and positive Dojo atmosphere where everyone is supportive this builds terrific esprit de corps.

To paraphrase a Zen monastic saying; “like pebbles in bag, we polish each other”.

Tim

[kyudo]

I am surprised at this method of awards In wado ryu where we are advocating physical action to teach - amongst other things - a way to self determination and self discipline and self discovery so why would we use physical action as a punishment for losing..?

For one thing, it sounds like it's in line with the concept of hihyo:

Japanese martial arts method of critique is called ‘hihyo’ where students are taught to deal with adversity and in doing so to develop an ability to look objectively at their own ego involvement when being faced with the self discipline required in matters of criticism from one’s instructor.

Isn't the concept of winning and loosing not another method of critique which bears many similarities with Hihyo? After all, there's only one winner. The rest has to face the adversity of loosing.

Mind you, I'm not advocating punishment for loosing. It's just that the harshness of getting called a looser seems to fit right into the concept of hihyo. Or am I misinterpreting?

I, for one, am much more in favor of Tim's concept of 'looser stays on'. Though I'm not sure If I would call the subject a looser.
I started out my MA days in Taekwondo. But the dojo was populated by top class muai thai and kyokushin fighters. So they were my training partners. They forced me to defend myself with all my might, else I'd get a serious beating. But even though it was grueling experience, it felt fair. Because they chose to let me off the hook if I did my best. Even though they could kick my ass in the blink of an eye. It was then that I learned how to fight. It was then that I realized that it's not about the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.
However, even though these guys were as tough as nails, sometimes they did offer me some encouragement. And that sure felt good. Like fresh water on a hot day...

[WadoAJ]

Well,

It is getting awfully theoretic. If the loser stays on then it probably means the winner does not have to do anything. However, winning or losing is just as subjective as it depends on who is your opponent. So in that case all should stay on in order to progress or the winners should be practising in another group to become the losers and practice more.

Anyway, it is for this fact that we (our dojo) hardly ever use methods that determin a winner or loser, because ultimately it is about the process of developing oneself 克己. It is the sum of a whole.

AJ

[Tim49]

Well,

It is getting awfully theoretic. If the loser stays on then it probably means the winner does not have to do anything. However, winning or losing is just as subjective as it depends on who is your opponent. So in that case all should stay on in order to progress or the winners should be practising in another group to become the losers and practice more.

Anyway, it is for this fact that we (our dojo) hardly ever use methods that determin a winner or loser, because ultimately it is about the process of developing oneself 克己. It is the sum of a whole.

AJ

Hi AJ,

I’m beginning to regret using the word ‘loser’ it has too many negative connotations in contemporary parlance.
That’s why I said, “achieve the stated objective”.

The scenario I was talking about involved scoring points. Either one side scores or the other side scores – objective met or objective not met. It’s decided by a referee or a flag judge.

Tim

[oneya]

I am surprised at this method of awards In wado ryu where we are advocating physical action to teach - amongst other things - a way to self determination and self discipline and self discovery so why would we use physical action as a punishment for losing..?

For one thing, it sounds like it's in line with the concept of hihyo:

Japanese martial arts method of critique is called ‘hihyo’ where students are taught to deal with adversity and in doing so to develop an ability to look objectively at their own ego involvement when being faced with the self discipline required in matters of criticism from one’s instructor.

Isn't the concept of winning and loosing not another method of critique which bears many similarities with Hihyo? After all, there's only one winner. The rest has to face the adversity of loosing.

No kyudo, I think you are misunderstanding Hihyo which is a ‘one on one’ situation between Sensei and his student and begins much later than childhood when concepts like objectivity and ego involvement when being faced with the self discipline being required in matters of criticism from one’s instructor because endeavour and perhaps actions are not developing in congruence with their aims.

What we have here are children at the beginning of their involvement in martial arts playing games that create winners and losers where winner stays on in triumph while the ‘loser’ – an impressionable child perhaps at a critical stage of emotional development is marked down in an undercurrent of shame as a loser. This is a situation that could easily be remedied by defining better terminology that will foster the esprit de corps that Tim speaks of and if we engender a group identity all heading in the same direction with each responsible for the total group members.
The children are the glue that should hold the group and its identity together instead of winners and losers which are apt to cause fragmentation.

Mentors and sensei or instructors have a duty of care when teaching children that requires an ability to view the results of their own actions in shaping vulnerable children for the life ahead both in the dojo, in their life and in their emotional stability. Think of it as ‘enzan no metsuke’ if you need something to link it to budo, or you might remember we once spoke of the proclivity that some people have for beating children as a teaching aid. I think this is similar to that discussion rather than hihyo.

oneya

[oneya]

I can see what you are saying Oneya. I’ve often wondered about this myself.

Perhaps there is a whole new thread on exercise as punishment, but it might be interesting to follow this discussion: http://www.enotes.com/soc/discuss/why-e ... ment-70573

I have a contest drill we use in our Dojo where the ‘loser’ stays on and has to deal with a second (or third) opponent until they achieve the stated objective. The penalty for failure is that this obviously becomes an issue of stamina and starts to become more taxing. So there is an obvious incentive in achieving the goal. Classic carrot and stick.

Endurance work exercises the will and promotes a spirit of determination. In a lively and positive Dojo atmosphere where everyone is supportive this builds terrific esprit de corps.

To paraphrase a Zen monastic saying; “like pebbles in bag, we polish each other”.

Tim

Hi Tim,

I think a major problem is the instructors need to change before the practice can be changed so a thread along these lines might be good to open up the discussion. I think we - all of us - can be victims of the traps, fetters and ingrained legacies of everyday language and behaviour that we use without thought when dealing with children that will often light a fuse to inner disturbances. I was once employed as a social worker at a "School for Maladjusted Children" which 'branded kids for life the moment they walked in the gate. Eventually there was a name change but them kids are adults now and they still carry the brand.

oneya.

[kyudo]

you might remember we once spoke of the proclivity that some people have for beating children as a teaching aid. I think this is similar to that discussion rather than hihyo.

It's been a while, but yes I remember our discussion very well. How could I not? It affected the upbringing of my own kids. (In a very positive way, I might add...)

I see your point about hihyo...

[claas]

Hi,

I think oneya writes very well.

Having tried both the non-competitive and the competitive methods I think they both have value. Of course we must ask ourselves what is it that we are dealing with, when talking about wado and when talking about sports-karate? Also one thing would be, should it be sports-karate or budo-competition-karate?

For sports competiton and child's play games are good, but I know that some children have found value in stuff that they only felt for themselves, without anyone telling them if it is good or bad or if you won or lost. Children should not be underestimated. In the need for superficial couragement vs the one they really feel they are not so different from adults. The only difference is in the guidance. A friend of mine training one Chinese system said that children are not so stupid, so they teach them very much in the same way as they teach adults. (He also teaches at the school and is not stubborn or anything. So it's definitely not about "hard values", if someone thought so.) He says the results are great. When I was a kid we didn't have a separate children's group and I feel it was good. I am not so convinced that many of the child's play karate-classes that I have witnessed would guide the child to grow up learning to feel "inner value" of the stuff that is trained as efficiently as the non-competitive-non-playing method. Of course children should also play but there are other places for that.

Finally I want to say that the critique here is highly subjective, so I'm only talking from one viewpoint. The karate-activity that I criticized has different value and perhaps even is more suitable for more people. But I am not so certain if it is budo in many of these cases and I do feel budo has other value.