Socrates and suhari

[claas]

I meant something like a grading syllabus and was thinking more about if the idea is to "give" the fruit to a Dutch Wado society. In other words, if this is an arrangement to seek guidelines for how some society is going to be led. (?)

[kyudo]

The exploration of its ura waza would surely make an interesting evening's work..

It sure would...
I'll bring it up in the collective.

[Tim49]

Re. the Wado Collective.
Ah, I just realised something… silly of me…
I had it in my head that there was only one Wado Collective in the Netherlands, when in actual fact, if I’ve got my facts right, there are two, although the other one doesn’t use that name, but I reckon the idea is virtually the same. But I can’t understand why there should be two? Surely, if the hunger is there and everyone is being grown up, and grades and egos don’t matter then these two would be far more effective as one? Or am I just being naïve?

Tim

[kyudo]

I had it in my head that there was only one Wado Collective in the Netherlands, when in actual fact, if I’ve got my facts right, there are two, although the other one doesn’t use that name, but I reckon the idea is virtually the same. But I can’t understand why there should be two?

That's news to me. I only know of one Wado Collective, by that name or not. If you can point me to another similar group in Holland, I'll surely check them out. Because you're right, it would be silly to have two collectives operating along the same line...

[Tim49]

I had it in my head that there was only one Wado Collective in the Netherlands, when in actual fact, if I’ve got my facts right, there are two, although the other one doesn’t use that name, but I reckon the idea is virtually the same. But I can’t understand why there should be two?

That's news to me. I only know of one Wado Collective, by that name or not. If you can point me to another similar group in Holland, I'll surely check them out. Because you're right, it would be silly to have two collectives operating along the same line...

Okay, I might have got it wrong. Are you the KBN group? You might well be because I don't know who you are.
If I've got my wires crossed I apologise.

Tim

[kyudo]

Okay, I might have got it wrong. Are you the KBN group? You might well be because I don't know who you are.

KBN is the Dutch karate federation with some tens of thousands of members. It comprises of a number of different karate styles. It is mostly oriented towards competition and grading. As far as I'm aware, all the members of the Collective are also member of KBN. Some (me included) even sat on the board of KBN.
However, the KBN employs a hierarchy that is strictly shuhari in nature. That is: for each style a committee is appointed that determines how a style should be performed. When attending KBN trainings and seminars there's no option than to shut up and do as you're told. Which is fine, so long as the people in charge have sufficient knowledge and authority. Which is not the case. Most members of the collective don't attend KBN trainings anymore, because they have to do things that go right against the findings of the collective. So for us, the KBN is counter productive. My dream is to generate high quality of wado in the collective which should then feed into the KBN.

The situation with the KBN is a bit like the old story of the blind men and the elephant:
http://bit.ly/kT30go
We're all blind men, each holding our own part of the elephant.
To which the king commented:
"All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently is because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all the features you mentioned."

The collective exists so that not one blind man is in charge....

[Tim49]

Thank you for that I now get a bit more of a picture. I was over in Holland last September and the very senior people that I met were open and broad minded. They were genuinely interested and curious as to all aspects of Wado and I saw no closed-mindedness. I don’t know which side of the political divide they sat on but they did talk of workshops with the KBN group which were looking at Wado of all shades, so I can’t imagine that they would display any bigotry towards other Wado approaches.

I’m curious when you say that their findings go against the findings of the collective. Can you give me an example – maybe it would be interesting to apply it to some of the well founded Wado litmus tests.

I was silently musing as to how the ‘collective’ approach would go down in the UK, but we have such a lousy record in this country, we don’t even have a cohesive overarching group in charge of karate per se!

Tim

[kyudo]

I’m curious when you say that their findings go against the findings of the collective. Can you give me an example – maybe it would be interesting to apply it to some of the well founded Wado litmus tests.

One of the collective members has a problem with the demand that his body remains exactly mashomen while performing junzuki. I mean: exact frontal position, he may not make the slightest turn. A position, BTW, which is described in the KBN Wado curriculum as zenkutsu dachi. Need I say more?

As for me, one of the things that drives me crazy is that everyone in KBN first turns the front foot outward before departing in junzuki. I hate it when I have to do things that took me a long while to get rid of. It might also explain why some of these guys are pretty slow in junzuki. ;-)

Another thing that I noticed is that when performing a punch, they move, then stand still to deliver the punch. I'd rather be moving my body while delivering the punch...

I'm sure that I can learn a thing or two from some people in the KBN. But the trouble is that it comes with the full package, faults included.

[shep]

Another thing that I noticed is that when performing a punch, they move, then stand still to deliver the punch. I'd rather be moving my body while delivering the punch...

Hi Kyudo

Isn't what your describing, punching whilst moving Oi Zuki? As opposed to Jun Zuki (an altogether a different beast)

shep

[kyudo]

Isn't what your describing, punching whilst moving Oi Zuki? As opposed to Jun Zuki (an altogether a different beast)

Could be. I'm no shoto-nerd. I'm sure of one thing though: that ain't junzuki as I know it.
I wouldn't be surprised, though, if this were Shotokan influence. Because of orientation towards competition, KBN karate tends to get generic. I've met many a KBN member who couldn't tell me which style he practised. And I see shotokan people switch to wado and kyukoshin and vv as if it's nothing. Most people don't care, they just seek out the most successful coach for competition.