Socrates and suhari

[kyudo]

It would be nice to say hi.

I'll certainly try to make it.

When you mention about testing or ‘verifying’ some things by their nature are very difficult to test, because some aspects of our training are on a very long fuse. I think that individuals can become very set in their ways and therefore may possibly not have the motivation to modify their technical approach. It is also possible that there are contradictory practices competing within the same individual practitioner which can complicate things further. Now I’m not saying that is the case in your collective; in fact I am actually thinking of it from a UK perspective, but maybe this is a universal thing.

Yes, this is certainly the case within the collective. Obviously, explaining the same thing over and over can get a bit tiresome. But being set to our ways is quite human, and therefor difficult, though not impossible, to overcome. And yes, we do have contradictory practices, but interacting within the collective sure tends to bring us together. However, it is not for everyone. Some people drop out to never return.
Interestingly, sometimes the gatherings are visited by seniors of other styles, such as Shotokan, Aikido, etc. Even they appear to gain something from it, even though it's all strictly wado. And I have to say that they tend to make pretty sharp observations now and again...

[wadoka]

This is interesting and if the 'collective' is working then a big thumbs up to you.

It may be a similar question for us to address if we zoom forward 10 to 20 years time, or maybe not even that long. We have to face a changing world. When does a collective become a collective, is it based on proximity?

[Tim49]

This is interesting and if the 'collective' is working then a big thumbs up to you.

It may be a similar question for us to address if we zoom forward 10 to 20 years time, or maybe not even that long. We have to face a changing world. When does a collective become a collective, is it based on proximity?

I think this forum is a collective. Albeit a virtual collective.

Tim

[kyudo]

I think this forum is a collective. Albeit a virtual collective.

Yes, indeed this forum bears many similarities to our Collective. It shares the same informal nature. Dan grades are unimportant. And while some people are more prominent than others, everyone is judged by his/her own contribution.

However, our 'flash & blood' collective does have the advantage of allowing for physical training and dissemination through ohyo kumite. Oh yes, and the possibility to share a drink. ;-)

[Tim49]

"Oh yes, and the possibility to share a drink. ;-)"

Ha, I always think of the Dutch as the most civilised people on the planet....:-)

Tim

[Gusei21]

The Dutch Collective.

I would love to be a fly on the wall in one of your gatherings.

All I can say is that I am seeing improvement in the technical ability of many of its members.
Comparing them from what I saw 7 years ago....the improvement is huge....so I think something must be working.

But at the end of the day.....the best way is to find a good instructor, keep your mouth shut and SHU away.
And I know, if the Collective members thought there was an instructor that spoke to them then they would long be gone.

I guess it is the best you can do under those circumstances...

I am not saying there aren't good instructors in the Netherlands. I know there are.
The members of the Collectives might disagree...but I guess that is why they are in the Collective?

[kyudo]

All I can say is that I am seeing improvement in the technical ability of many of its members.
Comparing them from what I saw 7 years ago....the improvement is huge....so I think something must be working.

Thanks. I'll pass that on to the Collective...

I am not saying there aren't good instructors in the Netherlands. I know there are.
The members of the Collectives might disagree...but I guess that is why they are in the Collective?

That depends on what constitutes 'a good instructor'. We do have some excellent instructors with little in depth knowledge of Wado. But I guess that's not what you mean. We also have good instructors with a reasonable depth of knowledge. But then you have to take the whole package, along with their flaws. So there is no perfect solution. Then again, there never is.
So we work with what we have. Some of the 'good' instructors are actually in the Collective. Which is fortunate, because being in the collective allows you to weed out the flaws. It seems to work....

[claas]

Hi kyudo,

Do you have an agreement on the curriculum?
I guess if members of the collective are open minded and love to analyze by repeating, then it is possible to remember and find the teachings that the members have heard but forgotten. At least in the beginning this works. One problem is also that these kinds of collectives easily become too closed and then many members might become less good over the years but the collective still has the same power. If the hierarchy is more based on individuals, there are more moving parts and new generations can improve.

As a tool for training this certainly works for the collective itself, at least for some time. When the role becomes bigger as a political institution, there are dangers. And I asked in the beginning about a curriculum... I guess it is not easy to come up with a good one, unless the people are very co-operative in the right way and experienced. Compromises, so that the dynamics still work, can at the same time be heavy burdens and in practice not focusing on the essentials to the ones with the coloured belts.


My feeling is that unfortunately too many times the instructors do not remember correctly how they themselves learned by repeating basics and then they can't really appreciate the fact that the students need basics. So the curriculum easily becomes too filled with "cool stuff" and all the inventions must be written down.


But pretty much all this is just general thinking. The group in question might already be aware of all the dangers and the group might be a success.

[kyudo]

Do you have an agreement on the curriculum?

No, but we're working on it. Then again, I'm not hung up on a curriculum. For me a curriculum is an agreement between members of a organisation, rather than what defines a style. The essence of the style cannot be caught in words. If it could, we'd be ready by now on this forum...
As someone said here before, it's not what you do, it's how you do it that counts.

[oneya]

'claas wrote: Do you have an agreement on the curriculum?

and I am wondering if an item by item curriculum is necessary ? I would think perhaps examination and analysis of wado ryu 'concepts' might be more useful for a study collective ?

On the other hand with this

flash & blood' collective

Kyudo speaks of: The exploration of its ura waza would surely make an interesting evening's work..

oneya