Ura Waza

[oneya]

Oh dear, perhaps in the local Tee shirt dojo this technique/example could be practiced without the Tee shirt which would be omote, however as we have the actual shirt being folded I would call this a demonstration of ura waza.

Other ways of folding would be henka waza and could well include fundoshi folding and yukata yielding for those idle times when there is very little on TV...

As for kihon kumite: there would have been years or training in the basic techniques before we arrive at the uses and the ura waza of kihon kumite. All of which would have been perhaps hidden from the casual observer in earlier times but piecemeal transmission on a global scale together with electronic developments have made these concepts up for grabs. The pity of this is that 'transmission' along the traditional lines of sensei to student within dojo settings has now become compromised and even perhaps corrupt to the point where discussions like this are pointless.

and so.

oneya





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[honoluludesktop]

:) Like the long katas, vs. the kihon kumite katas?
:)
:)
Although he began Wadoryu in 1950, my Sensei only studied directly under Ohtsuka in the mid 50's. When I first trained under him in the 60s, he demonstrated kihon kumite (took my breath away), but refused to teach it to us. I did not get to learn them until I was in my early 50s. Sensei told me that in Japan, they never practiced kihon kumite kata, except just prior to a exam. He also said that my kihon kumite was pretty bad, even after years of practice. Actually he never thought that any of us did good kihon kumite. We were too hard in execution, and lacked flow (or something like that). He never mentioned Urawaza, and I am now wondering if the term was only used after he broke away from Wadoryu. Now it's too late to ask. Anyway, my kata didn't start to "flow" until after he passed, but who knows, I can't see myself.

[honoluludesktop]

This may be what oneya laments as the garble brought about by electronic media, but in absence of a explanation, I offer the following. After some discussion about what is ura waza, the consensus is that it refers to underlying principle. So it follows that these are kata of principles. However, in my mind the discussion takes a twist. It's suggested that the visible form is omote, and the underling principles, are ura. So I wondered what the other katas are about, if not principle. However, only these katas are identified as ura waza kata by the founder. Maybe I am making too much about that.

IMO here is where the understanding becomes murky, no one has attempted to provide a reasonable explanation of a kata principle other then the above definition. So, I will take a stab. The first ura waza kata, is a demonstration of restraining the opponents leading arm while moving in from the outside to break his balance. That is omote. For this to work, the defender must anticipate the attack, and move in in a manner that doesn't cause the attacker to retreat (kind of like a aiki-jujitsu knack) once contact is made. This is ura. However since I have never practiced this kata, my interpretation may be suspect. What I know is derived from the study of Wado's kihon kumite kata, and "touching hands to unbalance" drills.

[mspain]

Hello HNL Desktop.

This is Mike in Thailand. I noticed that Mr. Shiomitsu will be in Hawaii this August. I am not sure if he will be teaching in your dojos. If not, you could check with Wado Academy of Hawaii. I am pretty sure Mr. Shiomitsu can help you in what you are trying to find out.

As you must be aware, Shiomitsu was kohai to your sensei at Nihon University.

MSPain

[honoluludesktop]

Hi Mike, I did see his schedule. There are now 2 Wadoryu dojos in Honolulu. Sensei Guy and I were in college together, but I see that Shiomitsu is now associated with the new instructor. When Guy broke away from Hirano, he went to Japan, trained with Ohtsuka, and registered with Wadoryu. I will ask him when we meet.

How is Thailand working out for you?

[Tim49]

So, I will take a stab. The first ura waza kata, is a demonstration of restraining the opponents leading arm while moving in from the outside to break his balance. That is omote. For this to work, the defender must anticipate the attack, and move in in a manner that doesn't cause the attacker to retreat (kind of like a aiki-jujitsu knack) once contact is made. This is ura. However since I have never practiced this kata, my interpretation may be suspect. What I know is derived from the study of Wado's kihon kumite kata, and "touching hands to unbalance" drills.

You correctly identified some of the component parts of this particular technique. I think this very same technique is in the famous film of the old grandmaster showing techniques which are normally called kumite gata. This is a commonly practiced technique for those connected to Wado Renmei associations, so there is quite a lot of information floating around on this one.

Tim

[oneya]

Hi hdt,

I have come to believe that kata are like "koan", where bunkai is a solution derived from intuitive awareness. That, unless you practice any kata regularly, you can't understand it.

and

IMO here is where the understanding becomes murky, no one has attempted to provide a reasonable explanation of a kata principle other then the above definition. So, I will take a stab. The first ura waza kata, is a demonstration of restraining the opponents leading arm while moving in from the outside to break his balance. That is omote. For this to work, the defender must anticipate the attack, and move in in a manner that doesn't cause the attacker to retreat (kind of like a aiki-jujitsu knack) once contact is made. This is ura. However since I have never practiced this kata, my interpretation may be suspect.
.

So what has changed your mind from the koan post to the second post..?

Is it possible you think that the folks hereabout who have umpteen years of training in wadoryu and more than a few of them being long time students of some of the finest wado sensei in the known world and, this being the case, couldn't we safely assume that some do have a firm knowledge on what constitutes omote, Ura and henka waza.?

oneya

[honoluludesktop]

Tim49, Is that covered in the tape of Ohtsuka, and his son? If so, I will have to dust off my VHS player. If not, can you post a link? Please feel free to embellish what I have missed.

Oneya, No change. For me there is a huge difference between attempting to rationally understanding what I do, and how that is accomplished. Learning to do this: "the defender must anticipate the attack, and move in in a manner that doesn't cause the attacker to retreat (kind of like a aiki-jujitsu knack) once contact is made.", is IMO an intuitive process first acquired in kumite, then refined in paired prearrange sparring with the assumption that it returns to the benefit of kumite.

I didn't think that questioning what some might considered "the holy grail" a problem. How else does anyone learn? Until the advent of Relativity, Newtonian Physics was presumed to account for the universe. We now know the theory of Relativity, like Newton's Laws is relative to scale. Please keep in mind that I know nothing of the background, and experience of those responding to my post. I did not mean to offend your sensibilities.

[Tim49]

Tim49, Is that covered in the tape of Ohtsuka, and his son? If so, I will have to dust off my VHS player. If not, can you post a link? Please feel free to embellish what I have missed.

Yes that is the video. I had a quick look on Youtube couldn't find the particualr technique but I know it's there. As regards what is missed; the Internet is not a good place to start doing tutorials, too public.

Tim

[oneya]

I didn't think that questioning what some might considered "the holy grail" a problem. How else does anyone learn? .................................... Please keep in mind that I know nothing of the background, and experience of those responding to my post. I did not mean to offend your sensibilities.

No you haven't offended my sensibilities hdt, but a few have offered 'leads in to' the omote/ura question that you haven't taken up so they have withdrawn from the thread, a shame really as Shep for one was laying down a creditable area for exploration.

"How else does anyone learn?" you ask.

Well perhaps In the absence of a good instructor I would think the background and experience of folks you are asking questions of, would be of some interest if their answers were going to be judged as having any value. My wado instructor always said: "Just because people ask a question doesn't mean you need to answer them, unless you feel it is necessary that they have the information without the training."

btw, I don't really think the omote/ura question or answer is the holy grail. Like the man said, "There are no secrets - there is only practice">

oneya.