honoluludesktop wrote:Ura translates to back, hidden, or invisible. How this applies to the katas remains a mystery to me, unless my understanding of the word is wrong.
Tim49 wrote:but there are bits within these parts that you need to have explained to you, they are not apparent in the pictures.
shep wrote:..........AJ refers to them as ura waza and I can see the reasoning for it.........
Fellows, can you share the "bits within", and "reasoning" that you see?
This is where an ‘Internet collective’ falls down and also underlines the subtlety of Wado. I could try to explain what parts I recognise but then my description would serve no purpose for you because you would need a further essay on the context of the technique which in itself would fall short because you have no physical hands-on opportunity to experience of it. I tried this quite recently with someone else and was met with the Internet version of “???????” so I gave up, there was no point in pursuing it further.
People will look at these techniques and transpose their own technical level of understanding over the top of it and say ‘oh it must be this’ and completely miss the point. That’s up to them; I am not in the least bit interested in evangelising.
And then there’s another side to this; the best lessons are the ones learned through personal experience but directed by a Sensei who knows what he/she’s is doing. That kind of knowledge has real value because it unfolds naturally and it’s valued because it’s earned.
I’ve just read that through and it sounds a bit like a fob off. But, if you want to know what I really think PM me.
these are the last bits of stuff of my site that is not of my own product. I scanned it from a magazine. The magazine refers to "urawaza" and has given them numbers. My sensei used to call this urawaza as well as well as another sensei. I was thaught some of the kata present there although some movement appear to be missing or out of order. I also learned other ura waza that are not shown there. I can only guess that this was Ohtsuka sensei's way of practice and that he had plenty of those..
Like all things in Japanese culture, karate integrates the principle of "in/yo" (dualism or complimentary opposites). This is often referred to as a "public face" and a "hidden face;" or in the martial arts "omote" and "ura". In the context of waza, omote means the overt or obvious application of a waza that is readily apparent to the learner. In contrast ura indicates the implied or hidden components that aren't immediately apparent to the learner. Through constant and repetitive practice of the omote level of waza, attention can be appropriately focused and time spent most productively in a beneficial study of the ura level in which alternate uses of the application will begin to reveal themselves.
I think its interesting that in the non martial sense a quick google search defines Urawaza as Japanese for "secret trick" which is a quirky, ingenious technique that optimizes an everyday activity
Hope this makes sense to you.
shep
Last edited by shep on Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As I said before, I am not especially interested in the techniques of the kata, but was hoping someone knew what makes these forms ura waza. Anyone have access to a Japanese speaking teacher who studied under Ohtsuka?
Shep, Judo's Mifuni's Cannon of Judo('s) original translation uses the work "trick" where we are more familiar with "technique". In that context, ura waza could mean "reverse trick", or a counter attack. This can be seen in some of the forms, but several require movement on the part of his partner that is not apparent.
You may be getting hung up on semantics here. What we have is omote kata which even in its utterance implies the opposite or presupposes a obvious reverse side - which is ura, or ushiro or behind.? Just like the term 'desktop' implies that which is under the desk top or within the desk.? It is not a trick - it is just not obvious to the unknowing. It is something yet to be learned. just like levels of learning are incremental as are chronological ages which bring further knowledge as one becomes more learned. Then when one has developed even more and has accrued perhaps some wisdom which can bring Henka waza - or alternatives to omote/ura because one's vision and initiatives are developing more .. Human beings develop in stages and mark their growth chronologically - As the practitioner develops so then his/her kata can be developed and marked similarly. omote - ura - henka.
It is not a trick or something hidden..it is something to be discovered and developed.
You ask: "Anyone have access to a Japanese speaking teacher who studied under Ohtsuka?" ...and the answer is yes you do -- because there are a few on this wado website that have trained with Ohtsuka meijin and some of the great sensei of wado since the early years of USA, U.K. and European wado dissemination. There are also Japanese born and bred wadoka who have trained for years under the eye of Ohtsuka meijin who have nihongo as their 1st language. What this site does have is a natural winnowing process that peels back the onion of wado layer by layer and often repeats this process as newcomers - of all stripes - join its ranks.
This site can be a gold mine or a minefield depending on one's approach.
Hi oneya, I guess I can see how you come to that conclusion.:) Simply stated, what distinguishes this set of forms from others, so that they are called ura waza?
these techniques are referred to as ura waza because they are not evident or obviously in the kihon kumite kata itself - unless you know how to get to them by instruction - examination and practice. Getting to them will not necessarily unlock all its uses unless you have an experienced guide to take you further. Your question shows the system is working.
Kata is very much for basic transmission purposes, much like an abacus. It has a shape which is designed to bring familiarity in its handling but requires Instruction in the method of working the abacus. Instruction in how to work the abacus will bring its uses into the foreground of your intellect beyond its shape. This revelation and its uses and why it is used in a particular way (in this instance this revelation which is not readily apparent by looking at the abacus - which looks like a kid's toy - can be deemed to be that which is hidden - or ura in Japanese)
honoluludesktop is your kata - we have come to know a little about you from your non de plume and how you conduct yourself on this website which can be called basic 'kihon' . It is very much different from how people in your dojo know you and even further to how your mother knows you - this is ura... Ura is unlocked knowledge. Henka is unlocked wisdom - a revelation from one's self - to one's self - wisdom which is - in part - contextual and hand made.
Hi oneya, This is turning into a very interesting discussion. I do not understand what do you mean by "how you conduct yourself on this website which can be called basic 'kihon' "? How am I wholly responsible for how others, and my mother (who has passed) understands me? Yes, I am from Honolulu, but I am surprised that handle provides any other insight into me.
I understand your definitions, but do not feel that you have explained what distinguishes a specific ura waza kata (lets use the first one as a example) from one that is omote. I am very familiar with kihon kumite. Are these omote? How are they distinguished from ura waza?
I also judge by your posts, that perhaps you believe that ura waza can not be understood by one that has not practiced it. I certainly except that you believe that. Thus I presume that while you understand what distinguishes ura waza from one that is omote you are unable to explain by words. Is that right?
I can not be sure if I'm following this correcty, but since kihon gumite came up..
the first movement - jodan harai uke - is omote. What is there but can not be seen just by looking at it is ura. You can look at a front door and can only guess what is on the other side of the door except when someone opens the door for you. In other words, Jodan harai uke in omote can be a variety of other things in ura when the door has been opened for you. Karate ni sente nashi is not going to help to find out as for this particular movement.
The Japan Times
wrote:Urawaza means "secret trick" in Japanese, and the display (in this example) was a glimpse into the treasure trove of household hints and life "hacks" that are an integral part of Japanese culture.