Ura Waza

[mspain]

Hi Mike, I did see his schedule. There are now 2 Wadoryu dojos in Honolulu. Sensei Guy and I were in college together, but I see that Shiomitsu is now associated with the new instructor. When Guy broke away from Hirano, he went to Japan, trained with Ohtsuka, and registered with Wadoryu. I will ask him when we meet.

How is Thailand working out for you?

Thailand is good for me.... not good for Wado Ryu as far as having an instructor here. We are trying to get Takamasa Arakawa here next December for a workshop. I hope it works out.

Mr. Shiomitsu was conducting workshops for JIKC in the past. Will he not be doing that now that Mr. Hirano has passed on?

I would also suggest trying to glean as much as you can from this forum. As has been mentioned, there are some people with lots of knowledge. Finding out who they are is not easy because of nicknames, etc. Once you find them they can be helpful. Kind of like Grasshopper and Master at times, though.

I don't know how much it would help, but Pat Nakata also trained under Ohtsuka Meijin in Japan before changing to Chibana's system. You could try and contact Mr. Nakata and ask him.

Good luck with it.

Mike

[oneya]

I would also suggest trying to glean as much as you can from this forum. As has been mentioned, there are some people with lots of knowledge. Finding out who they are is not easy because of nicknames, etc. Once you find them they can be helpful. Kind of like Grasshopper and Master at times, though.

Mike

Kind of like Trolling at times too Mike.

oneya

[mspain]

I would also suggest trying to glean as much as you can from this forum. As has been mentioned, there are some people with lots of knowledge. Finding out who they are is not easy because of nicknames, etc. Once you find them they can be helpful. Kind of like Grasshopper and Master at times, though.

Mike

Kind of like Trolling at times too Mike.

oneya

This was my mistake. I meant that message to be private. Oh,well! I must have been more tired than usual.

Mike

[oneya]

Ah, so another example of the difference between omote and ura eh..?

oneya.

[claas]

Some variations are:
- Changing aigamae to gyakugamae or vice versa while keeping the techniques otherwise the same
- Changing directions of moving out of the line, even in two or three different attacks coming after each other
- Changing an attack, for example a kick to a punch or vice versa
- Testing the distancing and potential for an attack by attacking in a different timing than in the omote and continue in a natural way
- Make the attacker add an extra attack to see if the "defender" is safe and has the potential to defend/attack
- Add a finishing technique to test that the essential technique opens up that option also
- Change the timing to ensure there are two attackers and not an attacker and a defender
...


All these numerous ways of varying the techniques and more open up what should be present or how the same thing works in a different set up.
HDT,
You can see if you find some of these in the gifs that you added.

[oneya]

Hi desktop...

Hi oneya, I guess I can see how you come to that conclusion.:) Simply stated, what distinguishes this set of forms from others, so that they are called ura waza?

and from the Ah Jodan Uke thread:

Shiomitsu Sensei is a great teacher, isn't he? I had oppertunity to attend the seminars of many exceptional first generation teachers, Kanazawa, Asai, Arakawa, Mori, etc., but Shiomitsu Sensei was the only one as comfortable at the chalk board, as "on the mat". IMO his demonstration skills are superb. As you said, he always emphasized the need to commit, beyond the outward form. If you get the chance, ask him to partner up in kihon-kumite, so that you can feel his "ura waza". From the Hagakura, "The way of the Samurai is found in death. When it comes to either/or, there is only the quick choice of death. It is not particularly difficult. Be determined and advance....". This suggest that when you live as though you are dead, you do not need to consider the consequence of losing your life. When the time for action comes, there is no reservation in your advance. In Judo, Mifune reminds us that "proverbs teach "you can't catch the tigers cub unless you dare to step into its cave", and "risk all and gain all", hence "here comes a mind in perfect harmony with body"".

In view of all that has gone before on this ura waza subject, can I ask what you actually felt in your exchange with Shiomitsu sensei that you could seemingly identify as "urawaza" ???

oneya

[honoluludesktop]

HI oneya,

.................In view of all that has gone before on this ura waza subject, can I ask what you actually felt in your exchange with Shiomitsu sensei that you could seemingly identify as "urawaza" ???..........

Based on my understanding that "omote" is the outward form, and "ura" are underlying principles; In the case of my doing kihon kumite with Shiomitsu Sensei, one principle is:

....When the time for action comes, there is no reservation in your advance....

because he told me that my kihon kumite was too technical, and did not have commitment (or something like that).

When I started this line of questioning, I was aware that omote/ura translates to front/back, etc. I was wondering if the "urawaza kata" posted at the top might be a "thing", something different from kihon kumite kata (which I assumed was an example of omotewaza kata). I expected someone to say that this is urawaza kata one because..........; this is urawaza kata two because........., etc.

I am lead to believe, by the responses I received here, that the kata above may have no special distinction as "urawaza". Perhaps they are not part of a fixed syllabus, but something that Ohtsuka created from time to time. I am also lead to believe that these kata may be studied by changing stances, etc., and elsewhere, it's suggested that I leave this forum. Initially, I thought that someone would tell me that Ohtsuka called this a urawaza kata because..........

[wadoka]

I would hope that no member here is told by another to leave just through general discourse. I would hope instances where that might be applicable would be clear but I had no sign
of that.

With the ura waza thing and expecting an explanation of those photo then virtually no one here reads Japanese and I think there was pages of text that ran with that article. I have never heard Shiomitsu sensei or Ohtsuka Jiro say ura kata. On Ohtsuka Jiro's first set of DVDs after the kihon kumite they show kihon kumite no ura number 1, but that is no doubt just one of their explanations.

[oneya]

Hi desktop,

While it may be true that these photographs show Ohtsuka giving examples of ‘his’ ura waza there a a few things to consider here, in the first place these cannot be replicated because they are quintessentially wado ryu which is part of the 90 year history of Ohtsuka meijin.

In my opinion what you felt from Shiomitsu’s kihon kumite was the quintessential wado of Shiomitsu in action after 50 plus years of study – part of which is urawaza but obviously there is more. Any depth of his power and movement cannot be replicated by anyone else because it is unique to him, just as Ohtsuka’s depth of wado ryu including its ura waza component is unique to Ohtsuka meijin. There is no secret to this, it is just the results of their training.

For anyone to achieve a similar depth and breadth of Ohtsuka or Shiomitsu’s understanding wado practitioners would need to follow their example of spending the time and effort in the development of one’s own wado. Any significant depth of one’s own wado ryu does not come from trying to work out Otsuka’s movement from still pictures. It is not a 'thing' to be had, it is a process that one can experience 'for one's self' from following their methods and practice.

What the photographs show as Tim pointed out was small sections of Ohtsuka meijin’s repertoire showing parts of what has come to be called: Kumite Gata, and yes there is a tendency for them to be also known as ura waza but I think this is confusing but then, wado can often be confusing when learning. I am still trying to get the concept of ‘san mi ittai’ woven throughout my own wado.

So, is there any point in practicing these techniques whether they are ura waza or kumite gata. Yes of course there is but it helps to remember that Ohtsuka probably had something like 40 years of experience before devising the kumite gata and it is this 40 year ura waza gestation period plus the subsequent 50 years of development when considering any aspect of wado ryu. In looking at stuff like this it may be as well to understand that the concepts and names are just signposts on a map of our proposed or current journey – they are not the territory that we are travelin' through.

Shiomitsu says your wado is too technical – which may have your understanding of sound architectural structure cross wired with the structure of wado ryu movement which allows us to collapse to the floor in an instant, as part of this critique.?

oneya

[honoluludesktop]

I posted this elsewhere, but maybe it's appropriate here too.

"One of the great American male ballet dancers, J. d'Amboise wrote that the greatest thing he learned from the choreographer Balanchine was how to study a complete dance. He was able to do this only after he had achieved a high degree of mastery in his art. After Balanchine's class, he would take the first two position, and study now to move from one to another. He would exhaust the variation of doing the move until he was satisfied that his execution was correct. He would then take the second position and study the movement to the third, going back to the first if necessary. Not unlike a kyudo lesson. I have never put this kind of effort into studying any kata, having done no less then a quarter of the kata when I studied it in detail. Each movement would have to include its principle or it will just be empty form. I doubt that d'Amboise had more then a week to make this effort for each dance, as he was typically scheduled to perform shortly after learning the dance. Because of the level of his skill, a week was probably more then enough time. d'Amboise expressed the belief that this effort helped him achieve his best work, and understanding of it. This is probably not a task for a beginner, and still an effort for a advanced karateka."