omote, ura and henka

General discussions on Wado Ryu karate and associated martial arts.
WadoAJ
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Re: omote, ura and henka

Post by WadoAJ »

oneya wrote:
kyudo wrote:
wadoka wrote:Oh no, you will be going to MBA courses and they will bring Sun Tsu's Art of War out.
What's next? A dance class featuring kumite?
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krxYkRkJ ... re=related

oneya
omg. and I was just listening to Michael Jackson at the same time??

AJ
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TSYR
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Re: omote, ura and henka

Post by TSYR »

kyudo wrote:The interesting recent idori discussion invoked some questions about terminology. Let's see if I got this straight:

Omote
The outer shape of the kata. The form of the kata as thought to beginners.

Ura
The principles underlying the omote of the kata.

Henka
Omote variations. The ura remains unchanged, else it becomes another kata.

Is that about right?

If so, I wonder: are omote, ura and henka related to su-ha-ri? I could imagine the following links: In 'su', the omote is studied. In 'ha' understanding sinks in with experience and the ura is appreciated. Only in 'ri' new henka are created.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...
LOL,

What a crazy thread...

Okay.....From the standpoint of most koryu and SYR in particular.....

Omote Kata - The orthodox outward expression of the kata. The omote kata is created to express the most clear expression of the kata's driving principles and theory.

Ura Kata- A more advanced or alternative outward expression of the kata that is intended to emphasize the deeper and more obscure principles and theories driving the omote kata. Sometimes the visual difference between the omote and ura version of a kata are subtle, while other times the differences are rather pronounced.

Henka - Variations of a kata, often created to represent actual application of the principles of the greater kata. The omote and ura kata are vehicles concerned with teaching principles while henka represent the individual combat application of these same principles.

So.....When people see demonstration of an art like TSYR one almost always sees the omote kata or a henka. Outsiders seldom if ever see the ura kata. In many koryu only advanced students are exposed to the ura kata as they are considered gokui or okuden (secret teachings).

I hope this helps clarify things a bit....

TSYR
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oneya
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Re: omote, ura and henka

Post by oneya »

TSYR wrote:
Omote Kata - The orthodox outward expression of the kata. The omote kata is created to express the most clear expression of the kata's driving principles and theory.
TSYR

.. and perhaps this - more than Shu Ha Ri - goes a long way to explaining the changes Ohtsuka meijin would have found necessary to the Okinawa kata he selected for Wado ryu.

oneya
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kyudo
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Re: omote, ura and henka

Post by kyudo »

TSYR wrote:
kyudo wrote: I hope this helps clarify things a bit....
TSYR
It sure does.
Thanks for contributing...
Igor Asselbergs
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honoluludesktop
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Re: omote, ura and henka

Post by honoluludesktop »

kuydo, That's a nice play on the words, but only a native speaker can say if three words can substitute for one phrase. Doesn't omote and ura often appear together, as in front or back, and visible or invisible? I think henka means to change, perhaps (for example) from front to back, or to the side. Is Nagashi henka, or does the word have to be used in context? As a technique, nagashi zuki is my favorite. My implementation is to begin by moving forward, then to fractionally pivot aside. Once at the USANKF I fought a huge, strong Shotokan guy who knew how to use his size to keep me away. In retrospect, the only chance I had was after he attacked, and when in response to his charge I pivoted off the front foot, he went flying by and crashed to the ground. He eventually won the match, but because of that move, he always seemed to hesitate when we met in future matches. Oops, off topic? With children, I fractionally step forward as they attack, and then step around them. When they blink, it's as though I've vanished. In Aikido, I think this is labeled tenkan.

Ura is a tough one for me. I recall it being used where the example was a video of a duck floating serenely on the pond. The scene cuts away the water in the foreground to reveal the duck's feet moving in rapid motion contrary to its appearance above the water. I often hear some say "see the hidden principle", and watch as others shake their heads in affirmation, but I wounder if they do :) In these instances ura is a meta word, meaning of a meaning. Unless your eye is like that of the "cut away scene", the underlying meaning is not clearly seen, else it would be omote. Perhaps it can only be understood intuitively, like feinting "distance" in a attack.

My Sensei used to say that in Su Ha Ri, one is always taken back to the beginning. Perhaps a "meta" phrase, seeming to be a mirage until you experience it yourself.
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