Hi TSYR,
I am so glad to see you sharing this stuff. Same goes for Gusei, who is looking at this from another angle.
I am sorry for writing in this form with quotes and replies, that I know not all like. I chose to do this so that it becomes better visible which part I am referring to. I also tried not to take anything out of context.
TSYR wrote:"What is the place of Idori, Tandodori and Shinken Shirahadori in Wado."
In koryu jujutsu, the omote kata are repositories of principle and theory. Generally, they are not representative of practical application. Practical application is pursued in ura kata or henka waza. So, what is the place of the Idori, Tantodori and Shinken Shirahadori in Wado ryu? To my eyes Ohtsuka intended these kata to be repositories of important Wado ryu principles, otherwise why have them...Why adopt the pedagogy of utilizing Nihon koryu paired kata?
I wonder if there is anyone who could answer this question. I have questions (to all of us) for taking this discussion further..
What did Ohtsuka himself tell the meaning of these are in Wado or did he tell this at all? When did he teach these, how often and for whom? When teaching, did he emphasize the deeper stuff or just some relatively simple lesson that is enough for getting people going? Did he open up something totally different when teaching these or was it just the same stuff with a knife, sword or by kneeling?
In short, how did he use these exercises?
Playing with a thought, hypotethically for me already the stuff that could be learnt simply by making notes from videos and practicing with a pair would have opened up Wado a bit, if compared to a situation that we would not have these at all. I think it has been said many times that the main reason for us to move differently than they do in Okinawan karate is the assumption that there could be a blade involved. I think training tantodori superficially sometimes could be just enough to put this in context, although it is not enough for knowing how to fight against knives. For me superficial tantodori has opened up other Wado stuff, such as retreating safely. Of course it is already in Kihon kumite, but we get slightly different examples which also involve a knife.
So I think, without these excercises perhaps something would slowly fade away also from the other stuff in Wado. If the blade would be taken out, perhaps in a few generations
the assumption of a possible blade would slowly vanish?
"So, if the people in Wado tend to do more superficial Idori (or the others) then would it be possible that the deeper stuff is not so relevant from the viewpoint of Wado?"
That seems like a good question, but to a koryu guy like me the question itself is flawed because it makes an incorrect assumption. In koryu the omote kata can contain very deep principles hidden in plain sight as ura waza. Most of the time you cannot see these dynamics at work, you can only feel them. If you ask people who have experienced TSYR kata first hand, I promise every one of them will say the same thing. They cannot figure out how the kata work when applied at an advanced level of execution. They cannot see the advanced principles at work visually, they can only feel the effect of the principle application tactilely. This pedagogy is fairly consistent throughout most koryu schools.
If you ask people who have experienced TSYR kata first hand, I promise every one of them will say the same thing.
No need to ask. ;) But I can be one of those who say it is
not fake and also that one really has to feel it. At least I had to. :)
FWIW.... some very advanced Wado ryu practitioners have publicly stated that what I do does not really work, but these people have never actually felt me executing advanced TSYR technique.
This tells more about them than about your technique. How publicly? On a seminar or in written form, for example?
So...From the standpoint of being a koryu practitioner and considering that Ohtsuka was likewise a koryu practitioner, I think the deeper application of Idori, Tantodori and Shinken Shirahadori is relevant to Wado ryu. Wasn't it Ohtsuka himself that admonished his students to adopt the principle of using zero power?
I think this is very interesting to read. Would the deeper stuff still perhaps be, how would I say... deeper stuff? :) I mean that if Ohtsuka would have thought it was very relevant, would he not have taught it thoroughly?
"So is the superficial stuff higschool-stuff and the professor-stuff lost from Wado? Did Ohtsuka run out of time with his students?"
This is a fair but controversial question. I do not have an answer to this. One thing is certain, for whatever reason the advanced application of SYR principles seems to my eyes absent from todays execution of Wado ryu Idori, Tantodori and Shinken Shiraha dori. Others more experienced with Wado ryu's technical legacy can speculate on this subject and the reason for this as it is beyond my area of expertise or concern.
To sum up my approach for all these questions, I logically find two alternatives, provided that no one in Wado knows the techniques in depth:
1. Ohtsuka didn't feel these techniques needed to be known in depth in Wado context.
2. Ohtsuka didn't find the time to transfer these techniques in depth even though he would have thought they are essential also in Wado context.
What I am getting at is trying to discuss the place of these in Wado. They are not as important as many other things but how much less important are they and what is their importance?