All Wado Karate Forum

Sounds like a bit of a nightmare. Kyokushin is definately a different beast when it comes to competition!

shep

shep wrote:

kyudo wrote:
Another thing that I noticed is that when performing a punch, they move, then stand still to deliver the punch. I'd rather be moving my body while delivering the punch...

Hi Kyudo

Isn't what your describing, punching whilst moving Oi Zuki? As opposed to Jun Zuki (an altogether a different beast)

shep

Er..
Junzuki means punching while you move..
Perhaps I am misunderstanding?
Punching after moving is wrong.
Punchung before moving is wrong.
You have to punch while you move.
There is still some latitude about when to begin but what is important is when the technique makes impact.
When to begin is a function of the individual's hand/body speed since in Wado we punch with our body and not with our hands.

Junzuki - that elusive thing which is always a work in progress...
Kyudo - funny you mention being square. I am finding more recently that people are becoming too open so I am compensating by making people more square!
I would rather see square than too open but yes square is also no good. Slightly square/slightly open. :)
At the end of the day it is a lesson in how to take your body and propel it in such a manner that you get maximum mass transfer at impact. How do I transfer my entire mass and more to the opponent...

I guess a new thread could start here. I've always performed it as punch as soon as the foot touches the floor - so I guess that would be classed as just finished moving. Not too sure about Shoto's Oi zuki but I think they perform it as finish punching as soon as foot touches floor. Thats as I understand it but I'm happy to be corrected if its wrong.

shep

shep wrote: I've always performed it as punch as soon as the foot touches the floor - so I guess that would be classed as just finished moving.

When the feet arrive at their position, it doesn't necessarily mean that the body comes to a halt...

In any case, this is the type of issues we discuss in the Collective. The only, but crucial difference being that we can actually perform the technique while we discuss it...

kyudo wrote:

Tim49 wrote:I’m curious when you say that their findings go against the findings of the collective. Can you give me an example – maybe it would be interesting to apply it to some of the well founded Wado litmus tests.

One of the collective members has a problem with the demand that his body remains exactly mashomen while performing junzuki. I mean: exact frontal position, he may not make the slightest turn. A position, BTW, which is described in the KBN Wado curriculum as zenkutsu dachi. Need I say more?

As for me, one of the things that drives me crazy is that everyone in KBN first turns the front foot outward before departing in junzuki. I hate it when I have to do things that took me a long while to get rid of. It might also explain why some of these guys are pretty slow in junzuki. ;-)

Another thing that I noticed is that when performing a punch, they move, then stand still to deliver the punch. I'd rather be moving my body while delivering the punch...

I'm sure that I can learn a thing or two from some people in the KBN. But the trouble is that it comes with the full package, faults included.

I think I'm getting confused. It doesn't sound like the guys I met in September. These guys were doing workshops which examined the different emphasis and approaches between WIKF approach, Renmei root and Wado Kai root. I can't see that there's that much scope for crass errors, might be wrong, maybe there's another group or the group has changed since you last had contact, who knows.

Tim

kyudo wrote: When the feet arrive at their position, it doesn't necessarily mean that the body comes to a halt...

Agreed.

If we have this much trouble describing Jun Zuki imagine how hard it would be to descibe a subject such as ura waza on a forum! :-)

shep

Tim49 wrote:I think I'm getting confused. It doesn't sound like the guys I met in September. These guys were doing workshops which examined the different emphasis and approaches between WIKF approach, Renmei root and Wado Kai root. I can't see that there's that much scope for crass errors, might be wrong, maybe there's another group or the group has changed since you last had contact, who knows.

Could be another group, I don't know.
But it also sounds like KBN. In theory. Fact is: I'm one of the most senior JKF-Wadokai people in Holland. But I was never invited to such a workshop. Nor anyone else from JKF-Wadokai as far as I know.

FYI: here's the state of the art of Wado Holland:

The fella performing kobudo is Gert-Jan Martens, the bald guy is Jerry Smit, both among the most senior KBN wadoka. In fact Gert-Jan manages the wado faction within the KBN. I've spent some time in Jerry's dojo. He's ok. But his dojo wasn't exactly my cup of tea...
Neither of them ever showed up at the Collective. Though they've been invited...

kyudo wrote:[FYI: here's the state of the art of Wado Holland:

The fella performing kobudo is Gert-Jan Martens, the bald guy is Jerry Smit, both among the most senior KBN wadoka. In fact Gert-Jan manages the wado faction within the KBN. I've spent some time in Jerry's dojo. He's ok. But his dojo wasn't exactly my cup of tea...
Neither of them ever showed up at the Collective. Though they've been invited...

This looks pretty much like WIKF approach to me, with presentation of mainly Ohyo Gumite, perhaps some element of Kono's influence on the initial Idori.

Are you posting this to say this is representative of the Wado trained in Holland as a whole?

Ben

blackcat wrote:This looks pretty much like WIKF approach to me, with presentation of mainly Ohyo Gumite, perhaps some element of Kono's influence on the initial Idori.

Jerry is affiliated with the WIKF. So that comes as no surprise. His pal Gert-Jan is affiliated with renmei, if I'm not mistaken. JKF-Wadokai is hardly represented in KBN.

blackcat wrote: Are you posting this to say this is representative of the Wado trained in Holland as a whole?

This is about as good as it gets in Holland. So this is the top, not the average.

kyudo wrote:This is about as good as it gets in Holland. So this is the top, not the average.

Ouch.

Confused slightly, when you say this is the top. Are you saying they are much better than the collective?