All Wado Karate Forum

Hi guys.

I am stepping in here.
Reg, much to my chagrin and I don't know how it got started but there are people in the Wadokai (I cannot speak for Wadoryu or WIKF because I don't know) calling it Tobikomi Nagashizuki. I think the logic is that there is tobikomizuki and then nagashizuki is a variation on tobikomizuki.
So we have tobikomizuki and tobikomi nagashizuki.
I personally never call it that but I have heard other people say that. So I think AJ must have gotten that from some Wadokai source.
The more important thing here is that (and this is why i hate naming stuff) we understand the difference between the two kihon techniques.
And Reg ilustrated this point very clearly. So AJ is just repeating what he was taught because that is the terminology used in some Wadokai circles.
For all I care we can call the technique 'monkey butt'. As long as your body is off the centerline and your power is following a linear path right thru the opponent's centerine (the new centerline that you reestablished when you moved off the line) then that is what counts in my book. The rest is just a work in progress like AJ.

As for being seasoned David, most of us suck. AJ sucks. I suck. Some suck more, some suck less. For some reason AJ keeps putting up video of himself and for me it is painful to watch so I don't really look. But in all honesty I have never seen a video of myself either because I think I suck and I can't bear to watch myself. I did look at his nagashizuki and what I see is someone who is doing the best he can with what he has been taught but still has a long way to go. But then again he is stlll very young so It wil be interesting to see where he is 10 years from now with proper instruction. There is a god awful film of me doing kihon when I was younger so I can't really talk. Had I been wiser I would have taken myself out of that video but I was too dumb back then.
He opens himself everytime he goes forward. He doesn't slide forward, he hops. His power curve is not spiked enough. There is all this excess movement after the impact. The list goes on . But the reality is that most of us are probably not even as good as him so... but it still sucks personally I think that putting stuff out there like that only confuses people into thinking that this is what it should look like. But this is the era of the youtube where everyone can be a star.

The problem with Wado is that most of us suck at it because it is very difficult. At the same time this is also why I enjoy Wado so much. Why would I stay doing something I was good at? Where's the challenge? It's fun because I suck at it. And I have the good fortune of helping people suck less at it.

When I was 20 I thought I knew all there was to know about Wado. When I was 30 I was sure I knew. When I hit 40 I started to get confused.
Now that I hit 50 I am totally confused and clueless. So it is comical to me when I see people who seem to know what this is all about. In my opinion there are about 3 people that really understand Wado.
I can't speak for the other styles but this thing we call Wado is by definition limitless and infinite. Oh yeah, and most of us pretty much suck at it.
The important thing is that you suck less each day....

Gusei21 wrote:Hi guys.

I am stepping in here.
Reg, much to my chagrin and I don't know how it got started but there are people in the Wadokai (I cannot speak for Wadoryu or WIKF because I don't know) calling it Tobikomi Nagashizuki. I think the logic is that there is tobikomizuki and then nagashizuki is a variation on tobikomizuki. So we have tobikomizuki and tobikomi nagashizuki.
.

In that case I would certainly apologise even as I wonder why the Jkf wadokai would make this more confusing instead of more simple. My understanding of the weight displacement in tobikomi is that it often can be iinimical to the nagasu principle where tobikomi is to lunge whilst nagasu is to slide, two entirely different actions.It is possible that Suzuki sensei opted for brevity in the early UK years but there were at least a dozen other wado ryu sensei in my early years of wado ryu. Certainly I have never heard this built in 'either/or' uncertainty in any dojo in Japan or the rest of the world that I have trained in and it doesn't bear thinking about as an agent of confusion even now.

Fortunately in the final analysis the name is never in contention.

Thanks for the input Bob.

oneya

Gusei21 wrote: ...much to my chagrin and I don't know how it got started but there are people in the Wadokai (I cannot speak for Wadoryu or WIKF because I don't know) calling it Tobikomi Nagashizuki.

It's getting even worse. I just received the latest issue of the magazine of the Dutch karate federation. In an article about nagashizuki, the technique is called tobikomi nagashi junzuki, which is different from tobikomi nagashi gyakuzuki. They add to it that nagashi gyakuzuki is only practised in wadoryu renmei.

Whatever. They already lost me on the first sentence...

As for me, my Japanese is quite poor. So I try to avoid Japanese terms. However, many Japanese terms need to be used because they have no equivalent in my own language. For instance: taisabaki and nagashi zuki are typically terms that are hard to translate. But excessive use of Japanese terms gives me a serious headache. Especially when used wrongly or out of context (zenkutsu dachi, anyone?).

After a busy weekend I have only just caught up on things.

I thought I would just double check the Wado Academy syllabus and that uses "tobikomi nagashizuki".

I wonder whether tobikomi is used to refer to the action of moving from shizentai. We also do okuri ashi nagashizuki, ayumi ashi nagashizuki and yes, nagashi gyakuzuki.

I apologize ahead of time for the brevity of this.
I don't really have time at the moment..

Tobikomu means to leap in(dive in). So in theory you can't do nagashizuki unless you leap forward in some fashion. It might be just 2 inches but the intent is to dive in. Dive into WHAT is the question. In nagashi you want to dive into his void so you can nail him with a punch. And as you are diving you are also at the same time doing the nagasu. Doing the nagasu - like doing the time warp dance - is the act of slipping the oncoming attack. You slip it (nagasu) by taking your body off the centerline he is traversing to nail you.
Tobikomizuki is just the act of diving forward right down the centerline because either
1) you have longer arms so you don't care
2) you have preempted him and he is too busy picking his nose or scratching himself to notice that he is about to get mashed
3) you have taken his front arm out by riding it (noru) and thus rendered his front arm useless. You displace a portion of your body weight onto it.

Now here is something to chew on.
Whether you do tobikomizuki or nagashizuki the advanced practitioner never goes outside his body. He never extends into his opponent.
He stays within himself. What sucks for the other guy is that he is still getting mashed. If you extend beyond yourself then the impact is weak.
Isn't that correct, Reg? By staying in yourself you have more power. You are the center of the universe!!!
See...I am learning :)

Love these discussions:
apply your intelligence to it, work out how, where and when you can apply it and chew it over, take your time; these things need fermentation time; you are not going to get the answers fed to you by a spoon (at least I hope not, that would be tragic).

A rose by any other name… will still knock your head off.

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK

Gusei21 wrote:Tobikomu means to leap in(dive in). So in theory you can't do nagashizuki unless you leap forward in some fashion.

Semantics.
Fun, fun, fun....

The way I see it, tobikomizuki is diving in with the intent of diving in and attack head-on. Nagashizuki is also a forward motion, but with the intent of parrying (for lack of better word) and attack, rather than merely leaping forward. Tobikomizuki stops the incoming train by throwing a block of concrete on the track, whereas nagashizuki shunts the train. Big difference. So, while both techniques involve a forward motion, the intent is quite different. Hence, as far as I'm concerned there's no need to add the term tobikomi to nagashizuki. As we've seen, it's confusing.

What say you?

kyudo wrote:

Gusei21 wrote:Tobikomu means to leap in(dive in). So in theory you can't do nagashizuki unless you leap forward in some fashion.

Semantics.
Fun, fun, fun....

The way I see it, tobikomizuki is diving in with the intent of diving in and attack head-on. Nagashizuki is also a forward motion, but with the intent of parrying (for lack of better word) and attack, rather than merely leaping forward. Tobikomizuki stops the incoming train by throwing a block of concrete on the track, whereas nagashizuki shunts the train. Big difference. So, while both techniques involve a forward motion, the intent is quite different. Hence, as far as I'm concerned there's no need to add the term tobikomi to nagashizuki. As we've seen, it's confusing.

What say you?

Igor you are going to tell them how it should be called?
Seriously?
geez...
Like I said, monkey butt.....

Gusei21 wrote: Igor you are going to tell them how it should be called?

Sure. Everyone should adhere to the new language I'm creating: Japadutch.
;-)

Ok Igor I have a plan.
In 17 days you will be sitting down with the chairman of the JKF Wadokai Technical committee.
You offer your proposal of the name change from Tobikomi Nagashizuki and I will propose monkey butt.
Let's see if any of ours has a chance of acceptance. :)