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Re: kuzushi waza
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:18 am
by oneya
claas wrote:Hi AJ,
Actually I don't talk about keiko vs renshu. I'm simply saying that we need some tools for the analysis, which is the only thing that we can do here. We use some words we have learned for some experience with an odor of sweat that we might share.
Sorry for the OT. The topic of kuzushi is so interesting that I hope this doesn't interrupt it too much.
Hi claas, of course you are right, we do need tools for the analysis and as far as I understand that is where wado ohyo kumite comes into the process. Ohyo kumite is the physical testing of the analysis of practitioner's omote kata's intent which ideally takes place in the dojo. What we do here is more like picking over the bones
post festum and my concern is that we must make sure that items like 'forum chat' and youtube don't become an alternative to the dojo.
... and you're right again, Kuzushi is an interesting subject in its own right, largely because of its SYR lineage so I hope it doesn't drift away...
oneya
Re: kuzushi waza
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:33 am
by blackcat
oneya wrote:[ Ohyo kumite is the physical testing of the analysis of practitioner's omote kata's intent which ideally takes place in the dojo. What we do here is more like picking over the bones post festum and my concern is that we must make sure that items like 'forum chat' and youtube don't become an alternative to the dojo.
... and you're right again, Kuzushi is an interesting subject in its own right, largely because of its SYR lineage so I hope it doesn't drift away...
oneya
Do you mean ohyo gumite in the generic sense or specifically the widely trained kata used in European dojo? These are not trained by everybody - some groups use them and others don't, so I would hope that would not be a hinderance to people understanding how wado karate works.
Kuzushi is predominently a feature of Japanese martial arts so it is plausible and rational to assume Otsuka took this idea from his yoshinryu training, but you can also see Choki Motobu using this and other familiar tactics in his kumite. Some of the very early pictures of Otsuka, show him stepping past his opponents knee in what we might say puts him into an exposed position. Later, it seems like he adjusted or refined his movement. The question, for those of us who like to worry about these sort of things, is what triggered these refinements (and when).
Ben
Re: kuzushi waza
Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:26 pm
by oneya
Generic is what I mean Ben but in this case I am talking specifically of wado ryu ohyo gumite or if you like Yakusoku gumite. I think we all know that Ohyo gumite, being much like wado ryu itself extends much further than the UK and European scene, however the nucleus of my ohyo gumite experience stems largely from - but is not now confined to - the Suzuki Tatsuo syllabus series from his pioneering days however when looking at ohyo gumite I tend to start with his body of work.
http://www.wadoworld.com/technical/ohyo/ohyo.html
I think that I would have to argue though at your designation of the
ohyo gumite aspect of wado being kata – unless you mean part of the process of kata analysis – because to my mind it is clearly open ended and would seem to form part of the greater process of developing one’s own understanding of wado ryu. I would hope, like yourself, that this ‘kata’ distinction too would not be any hindrance to people’s understanding of how wado ryu works.
Again, even with kuzushi in general being part of the fabric of Japanese martial arts it would be difficult to make a case for Ohtsuka Meijin not putting his SYR experience and his own refinements into play as his own understanding of the Okinawan vein widened and deepened along with his Funakoshi, Motobu and Mabuni associations. It is difficult also to not see his own personal experiences naturally forming reciprocal contributions in these associations and becoming the nexus of two way streets that - in the selective winnowing - became the wado ryu spaghetti junction of today.
Edited: kihon kumite changed to
ohyo gumite
oneya
Re: kuzushi waza
Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:13 pm
by claas
Hi all,
Since this is becoming very general stuff about kuzushi - at least now - I copied from the KK8-thread and continue here..
WadoAJ wrote:Gusei21 wrote:WadoAJ wrote:@gusei21,
like your mentioning of the resetbutton. This often occurs when one tries to apply kuzushi with too much enthousiasm. Turning the table looking at the role of ukemi, people tend to resist too much which is unrealistic after kari ate / atemi etc or the 'give up' too early. They giving up too early makes the reset button die before the machine does.
as for the dropping into mahanmi neko ashi. Many think they drop because there are bending their knees, while they are actually bending their knees while tensing the muscles of the legs (I guess you call this the quads, not really my field) dropping slower then they should. Actually, if you refer to bending this might be done slowly as well, lowering the body slowly. As for the dropping, I use "to unblock" the knee - hiza no nuki - stating that there should be no muscles interfering with the dropping action of the body becoming weightless temporarily - ukimi - and eventually harmonizing the movement while landing - shizumi - .
AJ
AJ,
Try this. (I realize I might be making Oneya and Tim cringe...so sorry..) Next time you apply kuzushi and your student runs away early - take it to the next level. Don't just apply kuzushi. The reason they escape is because they can. What I mean is that you have them weighted on only one foot. A better way to apply kuzushi is to make sure that as you slide under their center of gravity you also at the same time make sure they remain weighted equally on both feet. That way they are totally kuzushied (if there is such a word). They can't fall. They can''t move. The only way for them to move is for them to fall on their ass because you are connecting to their center and directing the force down both of their legs at the same time. That downward force comes from the body connection from your top half. It's like when you do a kotegaeshi. You can do it many ways. The generic way is to just crank the wrist and they will go but in theory they can still kick you as they go down because they are weighted on only one foot. You can also do kotegaeshi and as you crank you weight both of their foot equally so they are stuck in that spot so you can just destroy them.
I digress. So just slide in, connect, kuzushi, and weigh them on both of their feet equally. Now you can take your sweet time with that tanto and even carve your initials on their sides because they aren't going anywhere quickly.
Who said Wado was for self defense? There is nothing self defensive about Wado.
And we have idiots running around claiming Wado is just about kicking and punching...Hopeless...
Hi Gusei21,
Don't get the wrong idea, I said mentioned it as an example of anyone getting this result, not necessarily me vs my student. I thaught to read that in your reply, which makes the rest of your reply a guess. Fine explanation however different from mine in class, but it comes down to the same idea. As for the feet moving, they do it mainly even before contact is made if you know what I mean. Hence my examples of ashi barai and incorrect aiming of a punch or kick. It is like them doing solo kata thinking about the next movement instead of being live in kata.
thanks for your reply anyway.
AJ
One reason why people might escape kuzushi is of course because they can. Because kuzushi in "real situations" many times is very incidental, maybe it's a good thing to copy the
feeling of incidentalness even to the kata. Perhaps that would be kata that's alive. Also if someone plays his/her cards well and get to do kuzushi the way that was planned, probably the intent was kept hidden very well and again we have the feeling of incidentalness.
I always try to feel if kuzushi is possible and try to move as softly as not to scare my opponent and spoil the whole thing. Don't play it for real until it gets real. Perhaps no one should ever "miss" with certain kuzushi?
Many times I wonder why the rush?