All Wado Karate Forum

majin29 wrote:I wonder how Japanese feel about a dojo run by people non-Japanese but decorated in a fashion and clearly trying to emulate a Japanese feel?

Perhaps the same as Dutch people looking at this picture of 'Holland Village' in Nagasaki?

Wado heretic wrote:I can see and understand your points; but isn't the inherent cultural barrier in the way of truly making the rituals we practice within the dojo anything more than simple imitations of the Japanese traditions?

Unless one has immersed themselves in the Japanese culture by going to Japan and living there for a significant period of time, can a non-Japanese really internalise the values of the traditions to give them a personal and sincere meaning. Could it not be argued that in the majority of the west; that the traditions are followed as they were simply passed on along as part of technical system.

Thus the following questions; should one focus on understanding the cultural context and philosophy or should an individual instead attempt to emulate all cultural aspects? How do you achieve this in your own clubs/dojo? Do you dedicate time to exploring the philosophy and culture during lessons, or do you attempt to create an enviroment condusive to absorbing the culture?

I am not a fan of Shakespeare, I tend to agree with the criticisms laid against him by Samuel Johnson.

WH,
We are in danger of losing sight of the main priority; that is training.

The key to what I was saying was that it depends which level you are shooting at.

The way to true progress is through an awful lot of toil and hard work.

BUT this also needs a couple of main factors in place:

The guidance of a Sensei of the correct tradition.
Training in a Dojo which actively promotes the right atmosphere and the right attitude, with the support of a bunch of right minded people.

Like I said, it’s not the idea to BECOME Japanese; the concepts contained within Budo are universal. But, it’s the methodology and getting to grip with the logic of how all this fits in within Japanese Budo that requires some work, an enquiring mind and a willingness to temporarily disable the western logic goggles helps to gain some understanding.

Personally I don’t have to teach this as something separate within the Dojo, it’s part of what we do. Also I’m lucky because my Sensei is always on hand to make sure students understand the hows and whys of training.

Your emphasis on ‘absorbing the culture’ is slightly overcooking it. It’s not ‘absorbing’, it’s ‘understanding’ the thinking.

I think most students, when beginning their training, need quite a simple toolkit to get started; no mumbo jumbo just good practical stuff. The Dojo is quite a simple place to navigate round, the protocols are all practical, after all, this is Wado not Tibetan Buddhism.

I’m in a kind of Catch – 22 with explaining this.

Never mind Doctor Johnson, I more prefer Louis Armstrong….. “If you have to ask what Jazz is, you’ll never know”. He knew that and he wasn’t even Japanese!

Tim

I suppose every debate is a potential source of a catch 22 logic situation. As in my initial post on the subject;

I can understand the need to understand the context of the culture so as to understand the why and how of the technical system, as inevitably that has an impact on the way the techniques and kata are performed.

Thus I take it your view is that there is a need to understand the context, as you put it; "temporarily disable the western logic goggles helps to gain some understanding."

Yet the cultural trappings are not significant in comparison to a sensei of quality and a dojo with the correct atmosphere. Thank you for the explanation so far but I must ask, out of curiosity mostly, the following; why? Is there an underlying logic to this approach or is it simply the model you have found has worked in your experiance?

Wado heretic wrote:
I am not a fan of Shakespeare, I tend to agree with the criticisms laid against him by Samuel Johnson.

Ah heretic, I think you can easily miss the point if you let your emotions cloud your reason, Shakespeare is not the issue, rather his place in English literature and its contribution to that same ethos that creates the influence. You can just as easily substitute Samuel Johnson or Orwell if all you need is an English example. Whether you like Bob Marley or not is irrelevant in the study of Jamaican music there is no doubt that the Jamaican experience and ethnicity is alive in his music and influenced UB40’s music and success. Ohtsuka meijin’s Japanese wado is the same. It is also quite distinct from Okinawan karate.

This does not mean that we need to subsume our own experience beneath a fanciful patina of kanji, karaoke and sake stained tabi but if one wants to understand its governing dynamic the acceptance of its relevant ethnicity is part of the deal.

In today's brown soup martial arts milieu resulting from myopic western folk watching a Hong Kong Chinese fella cavort in a yellow cat suit and thinking it was ‘karate’ there were those already on the path whose minds were open to Japanese martial arts and accepting of all its differences, including ethnic and dynamic. Many of these folk are still travelin' today and will tell you it is a process that may yield nothing more than an ability to see the process in all its parts. In some instances, a little like psychoanalytic revelation, this ability may also allow you to see yourself within the process, but you will need to walk this path not talk it.

oneya

So you to are of the view that one has to understand the culture, but not neccessarily embrace it? Again; I would ask why? What is the underlying logical justification for this stance?

Note, I have not attached myself to either extreme of this debate. I have not formulated a view myself yet, hence the asking of these questions. It is obvious that one must accept the culture from which Wado Ryu comes, it is impossible not to do so and would be an example of cognative dissonance.

Rather, what I am trying to get at; is how far does one go into exploring cultural difference and should this be a part of dojo enviroment or left to the individual student of Wado Ryu?

I think understanding, appreciating, experiencing is one thing, to embrace by which I mean to mimic is a different thing.

I recently responded to someone by saying why karate is a different sort of challenge. To me it is a physical, mental and linguistic challenge compared to spending a hours squash. The linguist part should tap into another part of the mind compared to the mental challenge of overcoming self doubt and pushing through limits.

Take making kamae. We talk about having the feeling of holding a sword. We could move onto why we tend note to go on the route of strong blocks and kime-ridden technique, why we aim to relax and flow. Just look at the videos from the Japanese martial arts festival in the other thread. A razor sharp katana only needs to run a inch or two down the outside of the neck to put an end to things.

If we say have feeling of holding a sword and we started imagining a Viking long sword then it would be a different context. Nor would if benefit your Wado in my opinion.

We can explain the reasons, we can go back further, dig out texts and so on, or we can just stop at the shape.

The trail can run long and deep if you wish. We can enjoy and even 'embrace' as long as we don't get deluded.

Wado heretic wrote:So you to are of the view that one has to understand the culture, but not neccessarily embrace it? Again; I would ask why? What is the underlying logical justification for this stance?

Note, I have not attached myself to either extreme of this debate. I have not formulated a view myself yet, hence the asking of these questions. It is obvious that one must accept the culture from which Wado Ryu comes, it is impossible not to do so and would be an example of cognative dissonance.

Rather, what I am trying to get at; is how far does one go into exploring cultural difference and should this be a part of dojo enviroment or left to the individual student of Wado Ryu?

Perhaps one should start by exploring one's own environment and culture first before casting a wider net.?

oneya

Wado heretic wrote:I suppose every debate is a potential source of a catch 22 logic situation. As in my initial post on the subject;

I can understand the need to understand the context of the culture so as to understand the why and how of the technical system, as inevitably that has an impact on the way the techniques and kata are performed.

Thus I take it your view is that there is a need to understand the context, as you put it; "temporarily disable the western logic goggles helps to gain some understanding."

Yet the cultural trappings are not significant in comparison to a sensei of quality and a dojo with the correct atmosphere. Thank you for the explanation so far but I must ask, out of curiosity mostly, the following; why? Is there an underlying logic to this approach or is it simply the model you have found has worked in your experiance?

WH, I’m not 100% sure of what you are saying, I’ve read it through a couple of times and I’ll try and answer your questions, but…I think we need to wary of falling in to the trap of sloppy definitions. I don’t want to turn this into an essay on definitions.

When you use phrases like ‘cultural trappings’ I don’t think it’s helpful because it’s such a loaded phrase.

I think I said before that much of the philosophical understanding (and application) becomes more relevant the further down the road you go, but it’s a background thing, the main thing is training, but not mindless, unthinking slog. Brainless brutality has no part in a Budo agenda; this is why direction and supervision is so important.

If I am reading you correctly, you are asking me why cultural trappings are not as important as being directed by a Sensei of quality and a Dojo with the correct atmosphere?

I’m not for matching one against the other (like I said ‘trappings’ is a loaded word). If the Sensei knows his stuff then how he runs his Dojo should be an expression of his understanding and should consciously and subconsciously communicate to his students the right direction.

You ask, ‘is there an underlying logic?’ yes of course there is. I’ll give you a couple of examples:

The traditional Japanese cultural attitude has a great respect for a holistic understanding within learning. I read recently about a Japanese Kendo Sensei who came to Europe and was surprised about the Western need to break everything down in to bits, although this brought them certain benefits they lost out on the big picture and so their approach to the path to perfection was limited in outlook.

Another thing we tend to undervalue in to in our Western approach to physical endeavours is the concept of beauty. In fact I feel that as soon as I introduce the word when talking about Budo I know there would be a snort of derision coming from certain areas. Japanese Kendo people know about beauty within their activity, but in the west it’s almost a contradiction, an oxymoron.

Damn, I wanted to keep that brief.

Tim

Okay, that makes sense. As I said, I hadn't really come to a conclusion on the matter myself so for now this is simply food for thought. Yet it is useful to read the logic behind this approach to the matter. That was curious example Wadoka, but really put the matter into focus, so thank you for the example.