All Wado Karate Forum

One can always mention the worst swear word a wado practitioner can use: bunkai. Defences against what you are talking about Acer exist in kata, or so the application ethusiasts claim. Personally I am not entirely convinced, however applications are practiced in Okinawa and are a traditional part of Naha te schools. If you want to add the appropriate drills just look at the materials out there on bunkai. I'd suggest starting with the work of Iain Abernathy as his karate is essentially bunkai driven wado.

End of the day there is only good or bad Karate. The wado ryu syllabus is just one of many mediums through which to explore Karate. If it doesn't work for you, then look for another branch on the tree. Ohtsuka Hironori established a syllabus based on his own interpretation of the karate he learned off Funakoshi; and explored further with Mabuni, Motobu, Konishi and Ueshiba. Personally; I feel his knowledge of the kata was superficial and seen through Japanese eyes, and that what he eventually produced was an effort to make Karate fit a Honshu Bujutsu mindset and structure. Yet, I enjoy Wado and feel it has his own virtues that make up for it's lack of closeness to the original, or 'real' depending on your mindset, Karate of the RyuKyu islands. Though having dabbled in Shorin Ryu, I can say Wado is shockingly close to original karate, though differing in several critical ways, when compared to Shotokan and other Japanese Karate traditions.

Back to the original point though; all karateka are in danger of trying to wear three hats in one, the traditionalist, the sportsman and streetfighter. Thus we are left with the question; do we wear all three hats or try and just wear one?

The traditionalist, to simplify it, would be archetypical of the person who simply trains as he was taught and teaches as he was taught. Essentially keeping to the Kata and the Kumite as was passed down to them. Now a traditionalist need not be a dogmatist, many traditional martial artists have been innovators. The point is; these are the kind of people who try to keep their karate as their karate has always been.

The sportsman is basically those who are in karate as a sport, to win competitions. Now if you want to win competitions, what is the best choice? Kumite or Kata, he who chases two hares will rarely catch one after all. So now you get to a point where if you are attempting to do Wado, you either just pay lip service to the kata but pretty much focus on kumite, or you focus on making your kata competition fit in which way they may no longer reflect traditional wado to the detriment of your fighting ability. Basically, Karate that has become kick boxing or aerobic dancing in a gi. The most modern example of this issue is Kudo, which is basically MMA in a gi.

Finally, the streetfighter, the one focused purely on self defence. My question would be this; how many fights have you been in that have threatened your life? Unless you are a bouncer or some other individual invovled in regular physical confrontations, you will rarely be in any more than one fight in your life, and that one fight has usually been dealt with by high school. If you are looking for self defence on the quick; then Krav Maga or some other form of combatives which actually focuses on modern day self defence issues is probably a better choice.

That is not to say karate doesn't work in self defence, it has for me. Then again I am 6'3 amatuer power lifter, and I could defend myself well enough before starting karate. My big point is, learning self defence from karate, requires deep and dedicated study and all the componants for effective self defence are in front of you. In the Kata and in the Kumite devised by Ohtsuka. Now Acer you mention developing drills dealing with other attacks beside karate attacks. Why not do so and see how it turns out? Why does it have to be part of the Wado syllabus for you to develop and practice such drills. I get your original point, why doesn't wado do it as a whole. I don't know but I suspect it's because the current masters are only 3rd generation, the memory of the founder remains alive and with us. Why fix something that isn't broken, and if it's new how can it be broken already?

Final point, it's the shark and tiger arguement. Karate hasn't been shown to work in the ring so we have this doubt that it's effective in a real fight. Well to me there is one event I have etched in my mind that sums it up to me. I was in a bar with my friend who does BJJ and could beat me any day in the ring. I shant go into excessive detail but we both ended up in a fight with a group of drunken idiots. My friend took the guy who started on him to the ground with a tackle without much effort, and I kicked my agressor in the knee and elbowed him in the face. End of the night, I had a bruised elbow and my friend had a gash wound in the head and was hospitalised for a week from being bottled while he was wrestling with the guy. My point being, it's the tactic you use, not the techniques and no number of drills would have helped that night. I used a basic karate tactic, it worked, my friend used a basic BJJ tactic and ended up in the hospital. It's as much the fighter as the system and what is in it.

Kihon,Ren Raku waza,Sanbon Kumite,Ohyo Kumite,Kihon Kumite.Tanto Dori,Idori,Tachi Dori,Kata..Thats the syllabus.

Ah that sounds like the syllabus of the WIKF Acer and that syllabus was designed by Suzuki Tatsuo Hanshi who was the first Japanese sensei who came to the western world to teach wado ryu. His story and stature is far too immense to relate here but it is probably necessary for some readers to remember that his study of wado ryu lasted for seven decades and continued until the day he passed away just recently. That is seventy years of wado ryu training and relentless study to my knowledge Acer. He was undoubtedly one of the premier wado ryu master practitioners in the world. So tell me this: Do you think if Suzuki sensei had followed your advice it would have - to quote your words - " open(ed) his mind and make him better and more realistic practitioner." I think it's time you woke up to yourself and realise just how foolish you sound.

oneya

acer wrote:It will be honest for the student that?They here to learn and train in Wado not something else right? Sprawl isn’t Wado. Low kicks with the shin isn’t either.Why lie to them? Yes you can add on your own many thinks but in the end of the day you will still practice and teach Wado?We have our own syllabus why name techniques from other styles as Wado?And if we must do that why then not add them official?

I think what you are writing is somewhat contradictory. You seem to think that a lot of stuff isn't there in Wado and at the same time you say this stuff should be added but on the other hand adding it is "lying to them". What are you suggesting in practice? Who should be doing the adding thing? Jiro Ohtsuka, Jon Wicks and the technical commitee of Wadokai all at the same time and then get everyone in the organisations to follow this? How are you planning to manage this? If it is not done this way, which one would an adding on a lower level be: official adding or "lying to them"?

I have practiced low kicks with the shin in the instruction of someone, I think represents very well what is in the style and what is not. I have also trained the mechanics of a sprawl in Wado context enough to make me sprawl agains a shoot. Dropping the body and the arms while withdrawing certainly is part of our syllabus and the technique that originally seems to be a sprawl in traditional karate kata is done using the mechanics of a sprawl (something "as strange" as dropping down) even in our style. But of course just as cutting four fish sticks in half makes a difference for Rain Man, making something that already works "official" by writing it down to a syllabus on a web page makes a difference.

Wado heretic wrote:One can always mention the worst swear word a wado practitioner can use: bunkai. Defences against what you are talking about Acer exist in kata, or so the application ethusiasts claim. Personally I am not entirely convinced, however applications are practiced in Okinawa and are a traditional part of Naha te schools. If you want to add the appropriate drills just look at the materials out there on bunkai. I'd suggest starting with the work of Iain Abernathy as his karate is essentially bunkai driven wado.

End of the day there is only good or bad Karate. The wado ryu syllabus is just one of many mediums through which to explore Karate. If it doesn't work for you, then look for another branch on the tree. Ohtsuka Hironori established a syllabus based on his own interpretation of the karate he learned off Funakoshi; and explored further with Mabuni, Motobu, Konishi and Ueshiba. Personally; I feel his knowledge of the kata was superficial and seen through Japanese eyes, and that what he eventually produced was an effort to make Karate fit a Honshu Bujutsu mindset and structure. Yet, I enjoy Wado and feel it has his own virtues that make up for it's lack of closeness to the original, or 'real' depending on your mindset, Karate of the RyuKyu islands. Though having dabbled in Shorin Ryu, I can say Wado is shockingly close to original karate, though differing in several critical ways, when compared to Shotokan and other Japanese Karate traditions.

Back to the original point though; all karateka are in danger of trying to wear three hats in one, the traditionalist, the sportsman and streetfighter. Thus we are left with the question; do we wear all three hats or try and just wear one?

The traditionalist, to simplify it, would be archetypical of the person who simply trains as he was taught and teaches as he was taught. Essentially keeping to the Kata and the Kumite as was passed down to them. Now a traditionalist need not be a dogmatist, many traditional martial artists have been innovators. The point is; these are the kind of people who try to keep their karate as their karate has always been.

The sportsman is basically those who are in karate as a sport, to win competitions. Now if you want to win competitions, what is the best choice? Kumite or Kata, he who chases two hares will rarely catch one after all. So now you get to a point where if you are attempting to do Wado, you either just pay lip service to the kata but pretty much focus on kumite, or you focus on making your kata competition fit in which way they may no longer reflect traditional wado to the detriment of your fighting ability. Basically, Karate that has become kick boxing or aerobic dancing in a gi. The most modern example of this issue is Kudo, which is basically MMA in a gi.

Finally, the streetfighter, the one focused purely on self defence. My question would be this; how many fights have you been in that have threatened your life? Unless you are a bouncer or some other individual invovled in regular physical confrontations, you will rarely be in any more than one fight in your life, and that one fight has usually been dealt with by high school. If you are looking for self defence on the quick; then Krav Maga or some other form of combatives which actually focuses on modern day self defence issues is probably a better choice.

That is not to say karate doesn't work in self defence, it has for me. Then again I am 6'3 amatuer power lifter, and I could defend myself well enough before starting karate. My big point is, learning self defence from karate, requires deep and dedicated study and all the componants for effective self defence are in front of you. In the Kata and in the Kumite devised by Ohtsuka. Now Acer you mention developing drills dealing with other attacks beside karate attacks. Why not do so and see how it turns out? Why does it have to be part of the Wado syllabus for you to develop and practice such drills. I get your original point, why doesn't wado do it as a whole. I don't know but I suspect it's because the current masters are only 3rd generation, the memory of the founder remains alive and with us. Why fix something that isn't broken, and if it's new how can it be broken already?

Final point, it's the shark and tiger arguement. Karate hasn't been shown to work in the ring so we have this doubt that it's effective in a real fight. Well to me there is one event I have etched in my mind that sums it up to me. I was in a bar with my friend who does BJJ and could beat me any day in the ring. I shant go into excessive detail but we both ended up in a fight with a group of drunken idiots. My friend took the guy who started on him to the ground with a tackle without much effort, and I kicked my agressor in the knee and elbowed him in the face. End of the night, I had a bruised elbow and my friend had a gash wound in the head and was hospitalised for a week from being bottled while he was wrestling with the guy. My point being, it's the tactic you use, not the techniques and no number of drills would have helped that night. I used a basic karate tactic, it worked, my friend used a basic BJJ tactic and ended up in the hospital. It's as much the fighter as the system and what is in it.

Wado Heretic,
Excellent post, well put, well argued.

Just one point though; Iain Abernethy is not doing Wado.
He’s backed away from statements he made earlier, which seemed to suggest that he was revealing the hidden ‘Bunkai’ of Wado and now is saying essentially that the stuff he does is his own invention. Which is fair enough, it’s an open marketplace.

Tim

Shep, I think there is still mileage in this as a thread, and it isn't an-Acer bashing thread, just trying to see in one way what our training means to us, what it physically gives to us and why we think we may need it.

What I wanted from my training when I was 18 was different from when I was 30 and different to when I was 40. What I get out of it is different along the way as well.

I might easily be labelled by a budo-warrior as some liberal traditionalist doing what he can to pass on, what I have been given and learnt along the way, and who might get his come-uppance when met with a band of BNP thugs. Training for that scenario is a futile exercise that would add nothing to my life and could end up having a darker negative side if it were to be unchecked.

I liked this summing up on that aspect by Oneya.

All wado must focus on the fighting aspect and the fighting spirit is the most important of all but without the overarching philosophy it is just thuggery without balance. It is not one without the other neither is it 'either/or' but a balance between all the essential aspects of its total ethos.

the variables in a real life confrontation are almost infinite and as such is impossible to 'drill' to accomodate what might or might not happen.

Right...So lets training ONLY on straight punches as part of our syllabus then!That would be the smarter thing to do and not training in few other types of attack just to open our minds...Ok whatever....

You need to open up and wise up to what forum members are telling you, they are after all very experienced wadoka

I m talking about fighting here and the answers ''keep training on tobi komi tsuki gyaku tsuki and when you face another attack somehow with a magical trick you will make although you never train in your life against them it'' doesn’t saw much of experience(in fighting)

Ah that sounds like the syllabus of the WIKF

Not only the WIF syllabus I add all of them from all the federations just to saw what syllabus means.

Why dont you join your local Boxing gym, if it matters that much to you? I believe hook punches are in their syllabus. But I guess you will just end up asking them why they dont train for sune geri. Just a thought

shep

acer,

Could you please answer my questions?

Also could you please calm down a bit and stop making ugly caricatures about what people say, based on your own viewpoint, when others really try to discuss this with you? Giving up that way only looks like your point has no value and you are starting to recognize this. Of course you still should feel your point has value, since you keep your opinion, so stop being childish and try to support it instead of being disrespectful towards others here.

Why dont you join your local Boxing gym, if it matters that much to you? I believe hook punches are in their syllabus.

Why not to add them in our syllabus?Much easier...

Could you please answer my questions?

Of course,lets see :

You seem to think that a lot of stuff isn't there in Wado and at the same time you say this stuff should be added but on the other hand adding it is "lying to them

No!I mean if we adding them officially and use them in our training grades etc it will be ok.But if not and continue teach them to our student and call them Wado well this is not right.You want to use them?Fine!Add them officially or tell the truth that this techniques is from other styles!

Who should be doing the adding thing? Jiro Ohtsuka, Jon Wicks and the technical commitee of Wadokai all at the same time and then get everyone in the organisations to follow this? How are you planning to manage this?

Don’t involve me with politics. But if ever happen it will be only good for the system.It will make it stronger I think.

Acer, in our club we also practice stuff from outside the syllabus. And nearly every time when doing so we try to apply the principles learned from wado kihon, kata and kumite. The syllabus does not dictate what we can or should practice. The syllabus is something more like which we can use in gradings. I believe this is how the most of the members of this forum do.

I once heard that in another karate club, they planned their training sessions by opening the grading syllabus booklet each day and choosing a random grade/list of techniques to practice. And that's all they did (of course this is only what I heard and not witnessed by myself). I get the feeling that this way of training is somewhat similar in your club Acer.

Interesting conversation, please continue.

Chiefobrien