All Wado Karate Forum

Hi Tim,

You are entitled to your own opinions, but when you present your opinions on a public forum be prepared to have them challenged. Your previous comments on the forum were addressed and discussed and it was clear to me at the time that everyone stated their cases and you have a choice to accept their opinions, either in part or whole, or you are equally free to dismiss them.

Now on here you loft up a contentious view and then go all sulky when people give their opinion. If you are intending to engage in discussion then please be aware that it should be a two way street.

Excuse me but answers like :

must......keep.......awaaay......from.......keyboard....

Get thee behind me Seishan!

are clear irony and not opinions to accept them or not.Im here,in this forum to read different opinions of mine and why not to learn from them!Its nothing wrong with that right?The problem for me it’s the ironic answers nothing else...

With regard to your comment about ‘principles’, the application of these principles in Wado is difficult, the challenge for any instructor is to communicate the principles to the students firstly so that they understand them with their applied intelligence and then (so it doesn’t just remain on the cerebral plane) to be able to make them work on a practical level. If you look around (Youtube etc.) there are plenty of Wado people trying hard to apply these principles through the format of formalised kumite and in many cases failing to reach the mark, often it’s not their fault or the fault of formalised kumite, it’s the fault of poor transmission, how on earth can these people hope to apply the principles in an informal attack format if they can’t make them work in a formal one? You have to start somewhere.

Hook punches, low kicks (I won’t even need to mention ‘takedowns’, they are all over the place in Wado) are just variations on the vortices or loci of human movement, where’s the big problem? Understand the vortices/loci i.e. work with the Principles and the problem becomes no problem, of course it all depends on the student/teacher applying the Principles in intelligent ways. But if the brand of Wado is hidebound then the poor student doesn’t have a hope in hell.

Understand..You are probably right I guess.Thanks for the answer Tim it really help!

Ps.

(I won’t even need to mention ‘takedowns’, they are all over the place in Wado

As takedowns I was mean defending pair works against them.For example drills how to avoid or block double leg take downs attacks etc.
Ok if you have imagination you can take for example the move from Kushanku baptized sprawl and make drills on your own but my question was why they don’t exist all ready in the syllabus like kihon kumite...

Hi acer

I'm not going to try and teach you anything on a practical level on a forum. That is up to your sensei to do that. I dont know you or know how long you have been studying Wado. What raised my eyebrows about your first couple of posts were the

"kata were made (one of the many reasons) to saw defenses against ordinary street attacks not against this comedy!!!"

which I found disrespecful to say the least about a man who has a lifetime of study under his belt

and

"Principles...Principles...Principles...Kaisetsu not bunkai etc etc..."

Considering wado is based on principles of movement (amongst others), it just seemed like you were ridiculing wado. Maybe this came across wrong in the written word but obviously hackles were raised.

I can assure you your wado will not let you down if you learn the principles well.

shep

Hi Shep,

which I found disrespecful to say the least about a man who has a lifetime of study under his belt

It wasn’t personal for him but you are right it was wrong word at least...

Considering wado is based on principles of movement (amongst others), it just seemed like you were ridiculing wado. Maybe this came across wrong in the written word but obviously hackles were raised.

I can assure you your wado will not let you down if you learn the principles well.

Ok if you say so..There is a motto,''you will fight as you train'' so with out any drills against those attacks and only straight punches how can you applied the principals there?
I mean you will face for example an attempt for takedown and without train at it you will not recognized and before knowing what’s going it will be over..I know the example it isn’t the greatest but you know what I mean.

Hi Acer,
I think your understanding of ‘irony’ has perhaps become confused with my idea of humour; hey it’s a language thing and probably doesn’t travel across international borders very well.

Regarding “why don’t they exist in the syllabus..”; how big should the syllabus be? Should the syllabus be all we practice in the Dojo, that and nothing else?
The size of the syllabus in the various mainstream groups varies hugely and also varies according to which part of the world you live and train in. Example; the Wado Kai in the UK has a huge syllabus compared to the Wado Kai in Japan.

You are obviously no fan of the concept of Principle in Wado, but it is exactly these guiding principles which free us from the myopic stranglehold of a mechanistic ‘Bunkai’ model.

“Fight how you train” has been bandied around for a long time, but I would counter that with “Beware of simple answers to complex questions”. It is lazy logic when applied to Japanese martial arts, oh if it were only that simple.

Also, please don’t think everyone out there in Wado Land trains to only deal with straight line attacks, that’s a big assumption.

Tim

Hi acer,

We can not expect a style to be an "if-then-else" kind of algorithm that you can put in between yourself and an eventual aggressor. I have always wondered how come some people hope that their style would have this and that explicitely. Why not change to a style that has everything explicit? If someone thinks he cannot wrestle or punch if he hasn't learned every movement he performs as an official headquarters-approved part of a curriculum, then I think there is more of a problem in his way of thinking about systems than in some system he might criticize.

Systems are usually built around a core. There is no intrinsic value in having many techniques in a system. If a good way of using the body is learned and kumite experience gained, techniques become rather unimportant, I think.


I'm sorry if this has nothing to do with your posts. I just write because I know from experience that there are many who think in the way that I here criticize myself. I guess the shelter-thinking about styles is a normal part of growing up training, but it also should be left behind eventually. The sooner the better.


Oh, Tim seems to have written about pretty much the same..

acer wrote: Our drills focus only against straight punches what about the rest?

You might as well say: "Our alphabet focus only on A, B and C. What about Shakespeare?"

Learning to write starts with learning the alphabet. Then grammar and spelling. Only then you'll be able to write a message, let alone a decent story. Kihon could be considered our alphabet, kata the grammar and spelling. Only after you've learned how to write, you can use it to make your own stories.

acer wrote:Ok if you say so..There is a motto,''you will fight as you train'' so with out any drills against those attacks and only straight punches how can you applied the principals there?
I mean you will face for example an attempt for takedown and without train at it you will not recognized and before knowing what’s going it will be over..I know the example it isn’t the greatest but you know what I mean.

I think Tim, claas and kyudo have summed it up very nicely

shep

I find this article very useful.

http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_Assumptions.htm

GRNS

Hi Tim,

think your understanding of ‘irony’ has perhaps become confused with my idea of humour; hey it’s a language thing and probably doesn’t travel across international borders very well.

Well English isn’t my native language after all so no hard feelings...

Regarding “why don’t they exist in the syllabus..”; how big should the syllabus be?

We have so many defenses against straight line attacks that to add not much 2-3 more drills just to give an idea of other attacks would make the syllabus really big?
I just believe it will be better if those drills were existing as guide line to help the student understand how apply the Wado principles outside of the box (jun tsuki gyaku tsuki mae geri and other karate attacks).
The student will focus only on straight punches and then with some miracle he will find it for him shelf? How? If you don’t know what you searching how you will find it?If you don’t know and study the body mechanics of hook punches takedowns etc how you can lets say face them?You will not recognized the move and you will freeze its simple.

The size of the syllabus in the various mainstream groups varies hugely and also varies according to which part of the world you live and train in. Example; the Wado Kai in the UK has a huge syllabus compared to the Wado Kai in Japan.

Yes still ''straight line'' only...

You are obviously no fan of the concept of Principle in Wado, but it is exactly these guiding principles which free us from the myopic stranglehold of a mechanistic ‘Bunkai’ model.

I m fan of the concept how this principles can apply in other moves too and not only against jun tsuki/tobikomi tsuki.

Ps.I was always wonder why we don’t have hook punches as kihons ,just like Kette jun tsuki /Kette gyaku tsuki,nagashi tsuki, or even attacks and defenses with mawashi geri gedan (with the shin)in syllabus just like Kyokushin for example
And yes you can use it on your one outside the syllabus but in other styles that’s a basic kihon we don’t have it or use it at all (as basic kihon) anyone know the reason for that?

Hi Acer,

We do have many changes in direction to deal with in the tanto dori attacking, if you are in a hurry why not use them.?

oneya